Talk:Moshe Friedman/Archive 1

Archive 1

Category suggestion: Jewish anti-Zionism

Currently there is an an anti-Zionism category but there are multiple strains within it. There are some branches of anti-Zionism that are clearly anti-Semitic, but there are other branches, such as this Judaic branch that bases its anti-Zionist beliefs in religious interpretations, which include Moshe Aryeh Friedman (and Neturei Karta in general, although there are numerous others see: [1].) Thus I propose that we create a category called "Jewish anti-Zionism" as a subcategory of anti-Zionism to make the distinction between this branch of anti-Zionism and the others clear. --70.48.243.138 21:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --169.132.18.248 10:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Aryeh Friedman exemplifies the ability of some individuals to gain publicity through grotesque, bizarre behavior. I would like to propose a Wikipedia article on this topic: Publicists of the Bizarre, their successes and failures to get attention. In addition to Mr. Friedman, the article could deal with the Flat Earth Society, and the folks who propose that household pets need to wear clothes to avoid offending standards of public decency. Cognoscente18 (talk) 04:08, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

extensive article on Friedmann

lizaswelt.blogspot.com, a German blog entry, but with some sound sources given for some information.

Time given, I might expand the article and corroborate what follows with the Austrian Press: Moshe is a self-styled "Chief Rabbi", having attended a Kollel for some years without receiving a diploma. Besides, his jewish "congregation" is not acknowleged by the Austrian government, as he presented a members list containing some signatures given unwittingly, and some others that could not be verified. For what is known, he's a one man operation. Austria's real Chief Rabbi and all Vienna Rabbis, both orthodox and ultra-orthodox, condemned his conduct.

I saw the guy at the last al-Quds day in Berlin, Germany, speaking up for the organisers. Here's some German Islamists interviewing him on that occasion, and some pictures. That he was born 1972 in New York might be true, the rest is bull. --tickle me 13:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

"Rabbi" Friedman

Chief Rabbi Yonah Metzger has explicitly challenged whether or not Rabbi Friedman does indeed have Rabbinic ordination (semicha) that would allow him to use the title. Rabbi Metzger's challenge is public and sourced. The BBC source used to justify the title only shows that he is called "Rabbi" but makes no statement as to where (or from whom) Rabbi Friedman received his semicha. That people will readily assume that anyone with a white coat in a hospital is a doctor or that anyone with a long beard and hasidic garb is a Rabbi, does not make it so. While we should have explicit sources for all Rabbanim, the fact that we have such a public challenge from a reliable source dictates that we have some source that says something like "Rabbi Friedman received his semicha from..." that would constitute a verifiable confirmation of his claimed status. That he is referenced as a Rabbi in an article in the general media does not satisfy this standard. Alansohn 14:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a source for Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum being a rabbi? Well, of course he had 120,000 followers and presided numerous Jewish legal courts, but, do you have any reliable source for him being a rabbi? Similarly, for Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach? In fact, the latter likely indeed did not have semicha, since especially in the Litvishe world learners don't get smicha. The same thing for Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman. Please provide sources that they are rabbis - and the BBC does not qualify - otherwise I will delete all references as 'rabbi' to each of them. I hope you understand that this is ridiculous. If the guy calls himself 'rabbi', fine!

And what does the 'Chief Rabbi of the State of Israel' have to do with that? The guy is a pathetic Zionist who has no influence and is just a puppet of Rabbi Eliashiv (from whom the Torah community also disengaged due to his involvement with the Zionist State). He himself is accused of numerous crimes including corruption and fraud, and his Sephardic colleague is accused of being involved in a case of kidnapping and beating up an innocent young man.

So now if I bring you sources that the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem has stated that Metzger does not have semicha, you are also going to remove the title of 'rabbi' from his name? Please stop this crazy behavior. The fact that you don't agree with him doesn't mean that you can deny his status as 'rabbi'. By the way, I don't hold by him either, he has no status for me either. My rabbi decried him as an extremist who people should stay away from, on a very large distance, and not to support him in any way. But that does not mean that I am going to allow Zionist POV lies to be inserted into this article.

Regarding the cherem thing, Metzger's 'assistant' said this. --Chussid 17:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I know of no individual who has challenged the semicha of Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach or Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman. If you have verifiable and reliable sources to question the status of these Rabbanim, the place to add them would be to their respective articles. As to Rabbi Yona Metzger, he is the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel and his sourced statement challenging Friedman's semicha needs to be addressed, regardless of your concerns regarding Rabbi Metzger. It's hard to see issues raised regarding Friedman's semicha as "Zionist POV lies"; after all, all that would be necessary to prove the "lie" is to have someone state where and from whom Friedman is a musmach. Furthermore, your earlier edit summary of "in the chareidi world, we call many people 'rabbi' when they do not have any 'ordination'" would seem to tacitly acknowledge that Friedman's status as "Rabbi" is at best a colloquial title. Alansohn 06:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Rabbi Yonah Metzger is not exactly the cream of the rabbinate in Eretz Yisroel, but even if you want to say that a stopped clock is right twice a day, he has every right to condemn Friedman. Even anti-Zionists and non-Zionists like myself, who recognize Metzger as nothing but a politically appointed chief rabbinical clerk of the medina's bureaucratic rabbinate "mi-taam", roundly condemn Friedman. If you go to my site http://www.frumspace.com and click on Outrage of The Year, I have a link to a video of him speaking through a microphone on Shabbos Bereishis 10/21/2006 in Berlin. There is no excuse for Friedman, and no reason to show him for anything but what he is - a freak.

Also, please be careful to note that the AUTHENTIC Neturei Karta condemns him. His buddies Weiss, Cohen, Beck et al call themselves Neturei Karta as well but are not connected with the authentic organization/community/philosophy of Reb Amram Bloy ZYA. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.247.49.37 (talk • contribs).

Weiss, Cohen, Beck, etc. also distance themselves from him because of his chillul shabbos - although they appear with him together often, they say he has nothing to do with them if you ask them 72.84.199.215 (talk) 17:18, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Correct, see also the bottom of Talk:Neturei Karta. --Chussid 02:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Haaretz

If anyone is interested: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/810100.html . --Chussid 13:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

JPost: Neturei Karta rabbi's kids expelled

First off, even JPost calls this guy a "rabbi" thus it shouldn't be a controversial issue. Second, according to this JPost story, the guy's kids have been expelled for their fathers actions. There are now some legal proceedings underway. Can someone with an account add this information to the article?

• JPost: Neturei Karta rabbi's kids expelled

--70.48.68.68 18:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Please be Responsible

Okay individuals. I don't want to have anything to do with this article, or several of the other similar ones I've tagged like this, but Please please please obey wikipedia policy about living people. Review the policy. Things about living people must come from main stream, impeccable sources. Alos guilt by assosciation is not permitted. Basejumper 18:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• This is a well-sourced article that documents the assertions made about the individual in full compliance with WP:BLP. The articles cited support the claims made, even if the links are no longer available. I will be more than happy to review any specific complaints, to source them if there are issues, or to remove claims that cannot be supported. If no specific issues are listed as being in dispute, the Blpdispute will be removed. Alansohn 18:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your timely response. Please forgive me if my own responses are not so timely, I do not want to get involved in these articles too deeply. It seems that many of the sources do not meat the notability requirement needed for a biography of a living individual, and others like ynet cannot be used on this particular article because they are partisan in the opposite direction of the individual. Also, the talk about his marital situation is against wikipedia policy for a living persons biography as it has nothing to do with his noteriety. The criticisms also far outway any other information, which is against policy. I have already reported the article on the appropriate board, so I am going to end the discussion here and allow an admin to handle it. THe entire deletion log is full of insults and the like, and thus against Living Persons policy. That is not to mention the insults and unverified accusations on this talk page that need to be deleted immediately. Basejumper 18:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• I have removed the details regarding his wife and other claims that were unsupported. If there are any other claims at issue, I would be more than happy to attempt to address them. If not, i will remove the Blpdispute tag. Alansohn 19:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for working with me on these things. I think we are making good progress but should not remove the tag until the discussion on the message board is completed.

I'm going to mirror a messsage I will place there here, so we can discuss it here as well, and perhaps encourage others to find that board and give comment:

Regarding sources. I am not sure they all are up to the standards of a Living person's biography. For that purpose, partisan sources are not allowed.

Jewish Tribune is the Agudath Israel paper in England. Agudath Israel has a very hostile relationship to the organizations the gentleman the article is about is affiliated with.

Note 9 is from YnetNews, which follows the tradition of many fvery good European and Israeli papers by being openly partisan. One can argue, and I would, that this is actually much better journalistically because it is full disclosure of bias, which always exists inherently. This paper is Revisionist Zionist, pro-settler and pro-settlement paper. This means that it cannot be used on an article on a living person who is very opposite in the other direction.

Also there remain guilt by association and POV problems.

"May 2006 Friedman met with Atef Adwan of Hamas and an acting Palestinian Cabinet Minister in Stockholm, Sweden - where Adwan was attending a conference.[6]" Seems an attempt at "Guilt by assosciation" and was left without context. The article sited mentions this meeting was in order to arrange humanitarian food aid to the West Bank. This, I think, could be fixed just by expanding the description.

"Friedman also is known to have an association with the far right Freedom Party of Austria. A far right politician and Holocaust Denier attended his son's Bar Mitzvah.[7]" This is guilt by association, which is not permitted on a Biography of a Living Person.

The section on the attack against him is poorly sourced, and seems to lionize the attacker, and the attack is portrayed as justified. It needs to be more neutral and to portray the event similarly to the way any other vigilante attack on an unpopular person would be discussed on Wikipedia. It also has a statement that the man removed himself from Orthodox Judaism by denying the holocaust. None of the sources in the article make the claim he denied the holocaust, only that he attended a conference where many denied it. He himself seems to have defended the historical record at that conference. (That is beside the obvious point that even if he said the holocaust didn't happen he would be a poor historian, but Judaism does not require one to believe in the holocaust to be a member of the faith.)

In general the article also needs to have a tone change. It reads like a hit piece, and could be better organized into sections. Basejumper 11:10, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

• All of the sourcing issues raised have been addressed, with alleged "partisan" sources replaced with sources better known for providing greater journalistic balance. The wording of details of his meeting with A Hamas minister in Sweden and of his being attacked in Poland have been reworded. Details of attendance of a far right politician at his son's bar mitzvah have been removed. If there are no more specific issues to be addressed, the Blpdispute tag will be removed. Alansohn 12:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I edited some languag and took out unsourced things. Now it seems fine. I think it's okay to remove the tag now.

One thing I found disturbing, and I think there should be accountability for it: THere was a source sited for him being worried to go back to Austria because of fear he'd be accused of holocaust denial. This same source then went on to say he had not denied the holocaust but had in fact pointedly defended the reality of the event. That part was left out of our article. It seems to me quite clear that a particular editor wanted to paint the subject of this article as a holocaust denier and purposely left out that part.

That's a very harsh thing to do on an article of a living person, seeing how it is a crime punishable by prison in much of the world. Accusing people of crimes falsely should have consequences on wikipedia. Is there a way we can find out who added that part and perhaps give them a stern warning? Basejumper 09:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

His views?

I'm curious to find out where he is coming from. I think that some other readers of the article would feel the same way. If he is just a nut case he probably is not notable enough for an article, even if he did attend the Holocaust conference in Iran. Steve Dufour 12:27, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The article could very well end up deleted if the only content is: "This guy went to the Iranian Holocaust conference. That was a bad thing. He must be a bad person. Lots of good people don't like him." Steve Dufour 00:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I plan to nominate this article for deletion soon, on the grounds that Friedman is one of those people who are famous for just one incident. Please discuss, if you like. Thanks. Steve Dufour 19:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and made the nomination. Steve Dufour 15:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Afraid to return to Austria?

I removed this sentence twice, after it had been put back in:

Following the conference in Tehran, Friedman was said to have delayed his return to Austria due to his fears that he would be arrested by Austrian authorities for holocaust denial.

As was mentioned above, Holocaust denial is a crime in Austria. So this is certainly potentially harmful material about a living person. Besides that, the original source claims to be able to read Friedman's mind to tell us that he is afraid. All this is in violation of WP policies. The "was said" just goes to show how weak the sourcing for this is. Steve Dufour 13:14, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

With the other source from Friedman's side, the statement is ok with me now. Steve Dufour 18:18, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

• With sources from both sides, it seemed rather well supported. Alansohn 19:14, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

You need good support to tell people what someone is feeling, fear in this case. Steve Dufour 00:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

PL link

Administrator please add pl:Mosze Arieh Friedman to english site —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.77.15.69 (talk) 18:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Use of title of "Rabbi"

Not unlike the assumption that any male employee at a hospital is a doctor and all female employees are nurses, the media is generally convinced that any Jewish person with a beard and a hat is a Rabbi. An editor has provided sources to support the claim that he calls himself a "Rabbi" and that he is referred to by this term in newspaper articles. However, given the presence of multiple sources directly challenging the existence of his rabbinic ordination and the legitimacy of his use of the title, the sources provided do not prove that he is properly entitled to use the title of "Rabbi". Reliable sources will need to be provided to support the claim that he has received semicha and where and who it was received from. Without these sources, the use of the title is at best misleading.

As such, the question is should the courtesy title of "Rabbi" be retained? I, for one, strongly oppose the use of the title when there are reliable sources challenging its legitimacy and no reliable sources supporting the details and circumstances of his rabbinic ordination. Alansohn (talk) 19:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I must, respectfully, disagree with you. The sources who question his usage of the title clearly do so out of anger over his activities, rather than over solid knowledge over any purported lack of semicha. And the unnamed "Jewish Community of Austria officials" merely "expressed their doubts over his status as a rabbi" because he didn't prove it to them. Considering he doesn't recognize their standing, I don't see how they could have expected him to provide them any documentation, or why he would be required or care to do so. Additionally, the usage of "Rabbi" is a rather loose title. Semicha today is not a halachic requirement to be a "Rabbi". The semicha today is not the real semicha (which indicates an unbroken chain to Moses.) Indeed, the Chofetz Chaim did not receive his semicha until his old age, and then only because of a specific one-time need. Undoubtedly, any reasonable observer would apply the title of Rabbi to the Chofetz Chaim long before he obtained his semicha, the Chofetz Chaim's humble deferment notwithstanding. (And there are examples of other great Rabbis who hadn't bothered obtaining semicha.) So semicha isn't needed for usage of this honorific. Indeed, the non-Orthodox clergy are not recognized by (at least most of) the Orthodox as being entitled to the title regardless, and would challenge their usage of it. Yet we do not remove it here on that basis.

As far as Wikipedia, the rules permit the application of this title, especially with the reliable sources provided for it, the challenge notwithstanding (although it is entirely appropriate to note that challenge in the article - as it does.) Nor do we require details of a semicha (especially since semicha itself is not a requirement for the title) on top of the reliable sources that he has the title, as otherwise many if not most bona-fide title-holders would be subject to lose that reference in their articles.

Personally I find this mans actions and statements repulsive (not his anti-zionism, but his association and coddling with these criminal Jewish-hating murderers, and his supporting of them.) Despite that, my personal religious perspective (not used in editing Wikipedia), is that non-Orthodox clergy are not entitled to usage of this title. Just as that does not negate the application of the title in articles of non-Orthodox "Rabbis", similarly our strong disagreement with the subject of this article does not negate his usage of this title. 198.77.206.228 (talk) 22:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

• Wikipedia has a general policy issue with use of courtesy titles in articles. While I will respect the use of the titles when there are no issues presented and there is consensus that a title has been earned, such is not the case here. While one may refuse to recognize the rabbinic ordination of those from other branches of Judaism, I can assure you that the exact details of the institution that granted the ordination would be right in the article or readily found. If the term "Rabbi" is merely a "rather loose title", there is no excuse for using it here, where there are specific challengers to its legitimacy. I can call you "Reb 198.77.206.228" informally, but that doesn't make you a rabbi. I would be more than willing to reconsider my opposition to the title if any details can be provided as to the basis of his use of the term. In the absence of any supporting details as to the nature of his use of the title, it should be removed. Alansohn (talk) 23:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

• Wikipedia supports this article maintaining the title, as its been reliably sourced (ironically, what you had requested [in the history] in order to keep the title) and for the other reasons discussed - such that a challenge to it does not cause one to lose a title. (i.e. we can document cases of Orthodox Rabbis challenging its usage by "Rabbis" outside of halachic Judaism.) Certainly there are a great many Rabbis, beyond question as bona fide Rabbis, that it is not readily known where OR IF they obtained ordination. Like one of the points previously made, ordination is not a prerequisite for usage of the title. Joseph (talk) 23:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

• What has been reliably sourced is that the media parrots his claim that he calls himself a rabbi; no source has been provided to support the claim that he actually is a rabbi, which is what I was requesting, as required by Wikipedia policy to support the claim. While there are those who will make the claim that the ordination of Conservative and Reform Rabbis is non-halachic and should not be recognized, I can assure you that every one of those Rabbis can respond to that challenge by stating exactly where and / or from whom they received their ordination; you may not accept it, but they can prove it with reliable sources. I am willing to grant an assumption of validity to any Rabbi who uses the title in its formal sense, but where challenged it must be supported, as required by Wikipedia policy, a standard that has not been met with the sources provided. If, as you state, "ordination is not a prerequisite for usage of the title", it should not be used on Wikipedia at all, and should certainly not be used where there are reliable sources refuting the claim. If the title is only being used here in its informal sense -- I have a long beard and a hat, therefore I am a rabbi -- it is false and misleading to use it as a title in the lead sentence of the article. Alansohn (talk) 01:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

• Wikipedia requires reliable sources for it, 3 of which including the New York Times, The Jerusalem Post and The Guardian of London have been provided. It has more than met the standards for inclusion in Wikipedia. You're insinuating that the N.Y. Times, the J. Post, and the rest of the media simply take what they report at face value and is inaccurate is not acceptable. You have the heavy burden of proof of demonstrating that the NYTimes, JPost, et al are all wrong. One source merely questioned whether he is or is not a Rabbi and the other source merely stated his opinion that such an individual he does not consider a Rabbi - much like he would not consider the Reform clergy to be a Rabbi - he does not state any knowledge of lack of semicha or any other reason. 198.77.206.228 (talk) 14:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

• The sources that question the validity of his title are from Chief Rabbi Yona Metzger (who by the way, per his article, "received his ordination from the Yeshivat Kerem BeYavne hesder yeshiva"): "Metzger said. 'To deny the most sensitive issue in Jewish history, and to co-operate with the Hitler of our day? One of those men introduced himself as the chief rabbi of Austria — and he's not even a rabbi.'", which directly questions his lack of qualifications, and does not state that Rabbi Metzger believes he is a Reform Rabbi. The second source states "And despite his insistence that he is a chief rabbi of 'hundreds' of anti-Zionist congregants in Vienna, Jewish Community of Austria officials say he cannot show proof of having completed his rabbinical studies, and relatives, too, expressed their doubts over his status as a rabbi.", again directly challenging the legitimacy of his title. In the face of rather direct challenges from reliable individuals at reliable sources, these questions need to be taken seriously. Again, I would be more than willing to reconsider my opposition to the title if any details can be provided as to the basis of his use of the term: where did he go to yeshiva? Who gave him his semicha? Given the lack of this information, the use of the title violates Wikipedia policy. Alansohn (talk) 14:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

• It clearly is supported by Wikipedia policy. It has highly reliable sources from three different continents, from the most prestigious and reliable sources on each of them. Your insisting they are all wrong, notwithstanding. Additionally, you would have a difficult time maintaining your previous assertion that these sources are "convinced that any Jewish person with a beard and a hat is a Rabbi" especially as applied to the Jerusalem Post, one of the sources, otherwise they would be calling the majority of hareidim in Israel Rabbi's every time they had an article about them. Your Austrian source questions, but does not deny he is entitled to the title. And your Israeli source is the chief zionist Rabbi who clearly has an interest in those opposed to zionism (based on a religious Jewish basis.) The chief rabbinate has in the past questioned the validity of other branches of Judaism, and his questioning the validity here falls in the same category. He doesn't even particularly question his "qualifications", but rather his rights to the title. 198.77.206.228 (talk) 15:42, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

• The "Chief Zionist Rabbi" has explicitly challenged the legitimacy of this particular alleged Rabbi. There are no sources available to document the fact that he has received semicha of any sort from any source, and the Vienna Jewish community has explicitly expressed those same doubts. Given these challenges and the lack of any response to them, the use of the term "Rabbi" in relation to Friedman cannot and should not be taken seriously. A statement that says "One of those men introduced himself as the chief rabbi of Austria — and he's not even a rabbi." could not be possibly more direct in its challenge to Friedman's legitimacy. Do you have any proof that Chief Rabbi Metzger believes all non-Zionists are non-Rabbis, regardless of their qualifications? I am more than willing to accept sources that support his receipt of rabbinic ordination. I hope that you will take seriously this lack of documentation and address it without ignoring the clear challenges to Friedman's right to use the title. Alansohn (talk) 16:08, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

• You are under no obligation to take it seriously, but as far as Wikipedia is concerned the multiple reliable sources suffice for its inclusion. There is no additional requirement to document more than the common usage of it in the sources. I have not stated that he maintains that you must be a zionist to be a Rabbi. But there are quite a bit of references to the chief rabbinate "challenging the legitimacy" (as you put it) of Reform/Conservative "Rabbis", in at least as strong terms as he challenged the legitimacy of the subject of this article. 198.77.206.228 (talk) 16:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

POV

This article reads like a character assassination piece on the subject. Considering Wikipedia's policies regarding biographies of living individuals this is wholly inappropriate, let alone being unencyclopedic. 198.77.206.228 (talk) 14:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

• You may want to review the discussion above regarding potential POV concerns, the edits made to the article to reach consensus and the results of the AfD that resulted in a clear conclusion of keep. Every single statement made in the article is properly documented with reliable and verifiable sources in full compliance with WP:BLP. It's entirely unclear what the supposed POV issues are, and I assume that your recent series of edits were specifically intended to address these issues. Marking the entire article as POV accomplishes nothing; Specifying what these specific issues are in detail here on the talk page will have a far more likely result of identifying and addressing your concerns. Alansohn (talk) 15:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I am specifically referring to the writing style and the tone of the article. "Biographies of living people should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Additionally, the heavy reliance on questionable sources such as the Iran Daily, Arabic Press, EJP, "Adelaide Institute", and Friends of Al-Asqa could hardly be considered mainstream, especially as used for a living person. 198.77.206.228 (talk) 16:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    • These sources have been used only when they support his position and I am more than willing to consider any specific issue on any specific statement or source. Alansohn (talk) 17:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
      • It shouldn't matter whether they support his position or not. Such non-mainstream sources are suspect regardless. 198.77.206.228 (talk) 20:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

BLP issues

There are lots of potential BLP issues--Afreedman2 (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Website with information on MAF

Not sure if this is good sources, but it is helpful for some information - https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B0LudVp_bbPyQUg0Z19lak00YTg/edit --MosesYisroel (talk) 18:29, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

We can't use any of those as we have no idea whether they are genuine or who produced them. Anyone can create a PDF and upload it to Google docs. That's why we insist on reliable, third party, secondary sources, particularly for BLPs.--ukexpat (talk) 02:43, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Noteability

Other than being a quack who attended a conference what makes this person worthy of a Wiki page. Should he not be lumped in with Neteuri Karta or others?Tellyuer1 (talk) 23:39, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Edits

Are being made from Belgium where he last lived in favor of him. What makes him an activist? He is a quack. WHy would renouncing what he said be news? It wasnt anywhere and the sources are lacking. This page should be removed or be much shorter.Tellyuer1 (talk) 23:46, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Extensive information has been removed as it has no sources.Tellyuer1 (talk) 00:11, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Should be merged with this page which has a collection of the tiny fringe of anti-religious Jews - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta. Tellyuer1 (talk) 00:19, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Sources

RPoD along with the sources now in the history I shall post further here. This one seems quite good. Darkness Shines (talk) 00:38, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• Yt News Darkness Shines (talk) 00:46, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
• CBC
• Another good source Darkness Shines (talk) 01:02, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I have used a couple of them and think the article now has a basic framework covering the major incidents for which he is notable and I have removed the under construction banner. 01:37, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

What is the Vienna Review? And read the main source there now - chief Rabbi of Israel says he has no rabbinic training at all. Read updated stories. 5 minutes will post more.Darkness Shines (talk) 10:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 00:39, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Legality

In Europe it is not legal to question the occurance of the Holocaust. If these users are in Europe (as an unsigned editor this weekend was) then there is real legal concern. This of course as well as using wiki appropriate sources.Joeyrichardchicago (talk) 10:28, 31 December 2012 (UTC) Facts are being ignored: Question if he is a rabbi. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joeyrichardchicago (talk • contribs) 10:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

From Rabbi - In Judaism, a rabbi (pron.: /ˈræbaɪ/) is a teacher of Torah. Seems he is by wp definition. You could edit that and then claim he isn't.--Canoe1967 (talk) 10:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Canoe, This user is a sockpuppet of Tellyuer1. See [2] for details. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:36, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

++

Unworthy of a Wiki Biography

Moshe Friedman is nothing more than an opportunist who has used his sect's religious and political views on Israel and Zionism to establish relationships within questionable or fringe groups of anti-Semitic or anti-Israel (or both) communities in order to advance his own business deals. He has proven, even among those people, to be less than reliable and even dishonest. At best, his bio is worthy of a notation on the Neturei Karta's wiki page and not his own. He is neither the founder, nor the leader of the anti-Zionist group, and at best is just a sidenote. This article should be incorporated into that page and deleted as its own BLP. MosesYisroel (talk) 19:58, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

See Neturei Karta Talk Page MosesYisroel (talk) 20:28, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Merge discussion

I would agree to merge once the POV tag is removed on the other atricle. Seek consensus there and remove the tag, merge this article to there and leave this as a re-direct. This talk page should stay with the re-direct as per norm.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:04, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

• oppose merge the sources covering the recent, and likely to be increasing, coverage of the legal case in Antwerp has nothing to do Neturei Karta. He has recieved significant coverage about multiple items/events and only one of them is the fact that he is part of Neturei Karta. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:14, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. After re-reading, he does warrant an article on its own. Notability is met. RS and consensus on content still may need work.--Canoe1967 (talk) 03:37, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose for multiple reasons: (1) the Neturei Karta mage has various issues that need to be resolved before we move into that page; and (2) it appears the noteworthyness of Moshe will likely transcend just Neturei Karta. Tiggerjay (talk) 08:30, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per the above. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:16, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Resolved

Can we get back to the project now? Merge will never happen to that article so stop beating dead horses.--Canoe1967 (talk) 10:25, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Media from Israel

File:ProtectionofPrivacyLaw57411981unofficialtranslatio.pdf see Chapter 1, section 2. (11). File:PrivacyOrder81.pdf - Hebrew version. Are we allowed to use sources from Israel that violate this law?--Canoe1967 (talk) 22:25, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia servers and organization are Florida USA- we are covered by US Law, not Israeli. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:16, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Resolved

--Canoe1967 (talk) 03:32, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

It may not be a problem for Wikipedia to use such material, but it could be a problem for an editor in that jurisdiction to upload the material. SpinningSpark 10:36, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Interesting point. With the many articles that have controversial sections from Israeli editors, I wonder if any have or will be dealt with under that law.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:45, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Sources

The Vienna Review is a local rag paper. Why is it deemed a wiki acceptable source?Tellyuer1 (talk) 02:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

He is not a member of Neturei Karta: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/ Tellyuer1 (talk) 02:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

false story of Divorce filing

Removed as it is not clear. What is compromise? Largest Israeli newspaper says he was divorced: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739

More reliable than local Vienna rag paper?

Shortly after the conference, stories were published falsely stating that his wife filed for a divorce.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3352392,00.html

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17310/moshe-aryeh-friedman

even sources that are generally reliable sometimes get things wrong and when they do and their stories are inappropriately repeated, we do not include them when we have evidence that such a story is actuall completely basesless We have the wife flatly denying any basis to the story. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:24, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

More Sources

Friedman was even condemned by his peers: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html

Not a rabbi or community leader: http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3340592,00.html

The Satmar Hassidism Court published an unprecedented statement calling on the public to disassociate themselves from the seven Neturei Karta members who visited Iran to attend the Holocaust denial conference this week.

The Satmar movement printed an official placard, with bold black lettering, publicly denouncing “fanaticism, and those committing insane acts to walk hand in hand with the Arabs.”

The Sun is a tabloid and not a reliable source for anything remotely controversial about a living person. YTnews is the one that gleefully published the false story gloating over the false claim of divorce filing and so utilizing any YTnews for any potentially controversial content about this living person would be a mistake. Try again. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Dialogue on Changes

Rather than being bullies as some have tried to be discuss on talk before changes. You made dozens of changes - and didnt even notice that your very first sentence was factually inaccurate ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN SOURCE. pls dialogue prior to being heavy handed.Tellyuer1 (talk) 03:31, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Tellyuer, rather than bullying your changes, many of which were defamatory, please discuss them. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Stop these games. This is the Holocaust we are discussing. Read your source in #1 - your facts dont even line up to your sources. WHere does it say in your source for #1 he is a rabbi? Facts not fiction. Tellyuer1 (talk) 03:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Please discuss your proposed changes and get consensus before making them or you will be blocked. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:52, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Give me a break read the above. Discussed every change. Go through them above.

He isnt a rabbi and your sources show it. Read #1 source you have fool. Rabbinical court articles are above. So are divorce.Tellyuer1 (talk) 03:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Divorce should be removed as isnt clear. Largest Israeli newspaper says he was divorced: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739

The Vienna Review is a local rag paper. Why is it deemed a wiki acceptable source?remove that entire section sourced to it.

He is not a member of Neturei Karta remove: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/ Tellyuer1 (talk) 02:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3352392,00.html

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/17310/moshe-aryeh-friedman

Friedman was even condemned by his peers: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html

Not a rabbi or community leader: http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3340592,00.html

The Satmar Hassidism Court published an unprecedented statement calling on the public to disassociate themselves from the seven Neturei Karta members who visited Iran to attend the Holocaust denial conference this week.

The Satmar movement printed an official placard, with bold black lettering, publicly denouncing “fanaticism, and those committing insane acts to walk hand in hand with the Arabs.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 03:58, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

CHANGES Remove Rabbi. Remove Neturei Karta sect. Source #1 doesnt even support. He denied the Holocuast with my Haaretz source. Add that in lead. Divorce did happen. Source #4 not wiki worthy. Never lead community and has been excommunicated. add that.

Discussed it all anobe. You didnt.Tellyuer1 (talk) 04:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Every change has more than 1 major source

Shabazz claims libel when in fact every article has more than 1 source and his sources dont even say what he claims they say. all my changes shld be accepted immeidately.Tellyuer1 (talk) 04:03, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

The volume of proposed changes is making it hard to sort through. For instance, you mention a "Haaretz source", but none of the works appear to be named Haaretz. I do agree that the claims in the lede about his rabbi status aren't validated by the cited source, though I'm not yet sure what to do with the lede. —C.Fred (talk) 04:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

First of all, your preferred version of the lead sentence uses the word "extremist", which is a severe neutrality violation. Aside from that, I'm not sure what was wrong, but it seems that Ynetnews was not considered a reliable source by some editors. I can't say why, but try to find other sources for the same material and see what happens. -- YPNYPN ✡ 04:13, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

So remove the word extremist, and put the rest (although he who stands with KKK and Ahmenijad is extreme. But not important. Haaretz source here - http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 All of my changes had multiple sources. and Shabazz's are factually wrong. Ynet hasnt been challenged is largest newspaper in Israel?Tellyuer1 (talk) 04:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

How about this version with the sources I had on this version

Moshe Aryeh Friedman is an Anti-Zionist protester who has questioned whether the Holocaust occured stating the Holocaust was a "successful fiction." [1] He stated "Politically and historically, the land of Palestine doesn't belong to the Jews and should be returned to Palestinians."[2] [3].

Rabbi Yona Metzger, the Chief Rabbi of the State of Israel has stated that Friedman is not qualified as a Rabbi and urged Friedman be barred entrance to any synagogue worldwide. .[1] A Hasidic court called upon the public to disassociate themselves with Friedman and his peers and said "What they did there is a simple crime against humanity.”[3] The declaration stated that these people “dared attend a special conference of the nations of the world that despise Israel (may the names of the evil rot), deny the Holocaust, and deny and belittle the immensity of the evil and murder of those killed for sanctifying the lord; they desecrated the name of the heavens.” [4]

In 2006, Friedman participated in the controversial International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust with many statements questioning the Holocaust, and scope of the Holocaust. [4] [5] He believes that the figure of 6 million deaths during The Holocaust is from a prophecy made before World War II.[3] Following the event, every other Jewish attendee of the conference apologized for their behavior, except Friedman who returned to hug and kiss Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again a few months after the conference. [6] The Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger called for Jews to excommunicate Friedman and all members of Neturei Karta.[2] As a result of his participation, his children were expelled from the Talmud-Torah school they were attending in Austria where the family lived.[7]

He claimed to lead an Orthodox community in Austria,[7] but within the Jewish community, he was described as "a "kook" and an extremist who represents only himself" according to Austria's established Jewish community. [8] [9] [10] he moved to Antwerp. In 2012, while living in Antwerp, he went to court and won a case that ordered a Jewish school for girls to admit his two sons or face heavy fines.[11]

The largest Jewish newspaper in the UK, The Jewish Chronicle reported that there is a ruling in Jewish religious court worldwide to not permit Friedman's children into any Jewish schools. [12] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 04:24, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

No, that is just one big hit piece. I think it should in fact be removed per BLP but shall wait for others to comment. Darkness Shines (talk) 12:01, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we should say Ahminejad wants peace and Assad is a freedom fighter? Yes he was a Jew who was excommunicated for questioning the Holocaust. Haartez is a left wing paper the largest in Israel. They attack him. So does Yediot the largest paper in Israel. So does The Jewish Chronicle, largest Jewish paper in London. Yes Friedman is a bad guy and the piece should say so. Dont delete without commenting. Tellyuer1 (talk) 13:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Revision With Sources

Moshe Aryeh Friedman is an Anti-Zionist protester who has questioned whether the Holocaust occured stating the Holocaust was "successful fiction." [1] He stated "Politically and historically, the land of Palestine doesn't belong to the Jews and should be returned to Palestinians."[2] [3].

Rabbi Yona Metzger, the Chief Rabbi of the State of Israel has stated that Friedman is not qualified as a Rabbi and urged Friedman be barred entrance to synagogues worldwide. [1] The largest Jewish religious court in the world court called upon the public to disassociate themselves with Friedman and his peers and said "What they did there is a simple crime against humanity.”[3] The declaration stated that these people “dared attend a special conference of the nations of the world that despise Israel (may the names of the evil rot), deny the Holocaust, and deny and belittle the immensity of the evil and murder of those killed for sanctifying the lord; they desecrated the name of the heavens.” [4]

In 2006, Friedman participated in the controversial International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust and made statements questioning the Holocaust, and scope of the Holocaust. [4] [5] He believes that the figure of 6 million deaths during The Holocaust is from a prophecy made before World War II.[3] Following the event, every other Jewish attendee of the conference apologized for their behavior, except Friedman who returned to hug and kiss Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again a few months after the conference. [6] The Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger called for Jews to excommunicate Friedman and all members of Neturei Karta.[2] As a result of his participation, his children were expelled from the Talmud-Torah school they were attending in Austria where the family lived.[7]

He claimed to lead an Orthodox community in Austria,[7] but within the Jewish community, he was described as "a "kook" and an extremist who represents only himself" according to Austria's established Jewish community. [8] [9] [10] he moved to Antwerp. In 2012, while living in Antwerp, he went to court and won a case that ordered a Jewish school for girls to admit his two sons or face heavy fines.[11]

The largest Jewish newspaper in the UK, The Jewish Chronicle reported that there is a ruling in Jewish religious court worldwide to not permit Friedman's children into any Jewish schools. [12]

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305

2.^ a b c Boycott Jews who attended Iran conference, top rabbi urges, CBC, December 14, 2006.
3.^ a b Robert Tait (11 December 2006). "Holocaust deniers gather in Iran for 'scientific' conference". The Guardian. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
4.^ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305
5.^ Fathi, Nazila. "Israel Fading, Iran's Leader Tells Deniers Of Holocaust", The New York Times, December 13, 2006. Accessed February 27, 2008.
6.^ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html
7.^ a b Anna Claessen (March 7, 2007). "Rabbi Friedman’s Complaint". The Vienna Review. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
8.^ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305
9.^ http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/
10.^ http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/
11.^ JTA (December 29th, 2012). "Antwerp Jewish Girls School Forced to Admit Holocaust Denier’s Boys or Pay Fine". Jewish Press. Retrieved 30 December 2012.
12.^ http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/96368/school-told-admit-sons-neturei-rabbi  

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Discussion on above?

Tellyuer1 has proposed the above as a rewrite of the article. Are there any objections to the above text? If so, please state them here—or state your endorsement of the above text. I'm trying to gauge whether there is support for, opposition to, or just indifference about the change; having all the comments about this revision in this section will make that easier. —C.Fred (talk) 17:14, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• do i even need to say it? absolutely fucking no way in hell is this crap even remotely acceptable as meriting any discussion -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose rewrite per RPOD and Malik Shabazz's reasoning about BLP policy below.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 18:09, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
• Attack text, cherry-picked sources, written to inflame. Cannot be used per NPOV Tone. Binksternet (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Your sources you have in the article you people are comfortable with? Some obscure local Vienna paper ? And source #1 calling him a Rabbi - THE ARTICLE DOESNT EVEN MENTION HIM????? WHO SAYS HE IS A RABBI? Tellyuer1 (talk) 18:53, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Tellyuer1, is there a reason why you are YELLING? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
• Not a fucking hope in hell, pure attack piece. Darkness Shines (talk) 19:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Definition of BLP

I think there's a misunderstanding of what BLP says. The policy says that any contentious material - positive or negative - must be sourced. Furthermore, these articles should not include minor personal details. Also, they must be carefully NPOV. Everything else is fine and may be included. -- YPNYPN ✡ 14:28, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Everything else is fine and may be included. That's not true at all. From WP:BLP:

Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.

We need to keep that in mind when writing a biography, especially the biography of a controversial figure. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 14:33, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

And even outside of the additional restrictions of BLP "everything else is fine" is completely inaccurate: WP:NPOV (and its subsection WP:UNDUE) / WP:NOT etc. Content must be encyclopedic and presented in an appropriate manner. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I think my statement was misinterpreted somewhat. Of course there are things which don't belong in Wikipedia. But just because it's negative doesn't mean it can't be mentioned. -- YPNYPN ✡ 14:45, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

just being negative doesnt automatically disqualify it. however, the vast majority of content removed from the article and being suggest for inclusion has FAR MORE reasons for not being included than just the fact that it is "negative". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Such as... -- YPNYPN ✡ 14:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

such as the source that made the false claim that the wife filed for a divorce and then the source that revealed the falseness of that claim through the interviewer speaking to the wife who called the story nonsense. and yet we have an editor who keeps proposing that we include the false story of divorce filing without any mention that the story was false.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:21, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

So it seems there is consensus for my post above as the revision as long as we include "the false story of divorce filing without any mention that the story was false." Removed the divorce because not sure how it was relevant, particularily as different sources seem to say different things. The rest of it is all true and should be used

Not only is everything sourced, its sourced multiple times in multiple different papers (unlike the version currently up). Nothing is tabloid about it. He is the only Jew in the world to deny/question the Holocaust. That is extreme and he has been excommunicated by the Chief Rabbi of Israel. That is what he is noteable for. Nothing scandalous. If you are concerned about "the possibility of harm" then by that logic no one evil or bad would be profiled on Wiki. All of my edits proposals are fair. Focus on the meat of the issue not the side show you are creating. Seems consensus for my edits so will make them in a few hours if no more objections.Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure the silence could be called consensus (yet). I've put a straightforward request for comments/endorsement/objection to your text in the section above. —C.Fred (talk) 17:15, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Tellyuer1, please calm down. Read WP:There is no deadline.

Friedman is hardly the "only Jew in the world to deny/question the Holocaust". He is not fundamentally "an anti-Zionist protester"; he is a rabbi.

Other parts of your proposal are equally flawed. The Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger called for Jews to excommunicate Friedman and all members of Neturei Karta. That doesn't belong in Friedman's biography, it belongs in Neturei Karta. You describe Friedman as a "kook" without attributing the opinion.

If you'd like, I can dissect your proposal sentence by sentence. It remains defamatory and has no place in Wikipedia. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 17:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I can call myself the pope, it wouldn’t make me the pope. He is not a Rabbi in anyone’s eyes except his own as has been stated ad naseum.

Yes “kook” is directly from the article – and you have 2 people (including chief rabbi and a rabbi in Brooklyn) saying he represents no one but himself. The chief Rabbi saying he should be excommunicated is indeed relevant for Friedman – and your source saying he is a rabbi isnt even in the source you claim it is in. The largest Jewish court in the world excommunicated him. Which other Jew denies the Holocaust ? Even amongst the group who visited Iran, they all apologized except him. He’s an extreme radical and should be identified as such. Your quotes are wrong and inaccurate and sources lacking. Yes we need to come to consensus and you arent offering any compromise. 18:50, 4 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs)

Tellyuer1, please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policies such as WP:Neutral point of view (including "Attributing and specifying biased statements") and WP:Verifiability and guidelines such as WP:Words to watch. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:13, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

They are attributed and am familiar with those policies which is why they have multiple sources and are attributed. Why don't we say that a supposed massacre occured at Columbine and say Charles Manson had a group of friends he spent time with? You have sources and this is bordering on Anti-Semetic behavior to continue to push this false sources which dont even say what you claim they say. A Jew who denies the Holocaust and meets the President of Iran is a radical extremist. Any newspaper in the world would say that and thats not a violation of wiki as every paper has said it. The chief rabbi and biggest Jewish court excommunicated him. Thats a story and will go into Wiki. If you'd like to propose a solution pls do but your current insistence to keep the current version wont fly as your sources arent even accurate.Tellyuer1 (talk) 20:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

If you were able to choose words which gave a neutral tone then you would not have such a problem here with the proposed text. The sources are not the problem; it is the inflammatory wording. With your word choices and quote selections you are trying to make people get angry, which is against our policy specifying a neutral tone. The word "kook" has no place in this article, for instance. Binksternet (talk) 20:25, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok appreciate the reasonable commentary. Hopefully the below is acceptable text. As it seems we are getting close to consensus will revise and start a new section below. If someone has comments pls make then we can get it up. Thanks.

[duplicated text removed; see following section] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect, Tellyuer1, don't hold your breath. That text looks so close to your last proposal that I'm expecting there will still be staunch opposition to it. —C.Fred (talk) 23:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Revised Proposed Text for Moshe Friedman

Moshe Aryeh Friedman is a Jewish Anti-Zionist who has questioned whether the Holocaust occurred, stating that the Holocaust was "successful fiction." [1] Friedman has said "Politically and historically, the land of Palestine doesn't belong to the Jews and should be returned to Palestinians."[2] [3] Rabbi Yona Metzger, the Chief Rabbi of the State of Israel has stated that Friedman is not qualified as a Rabbi and urged Friedman be barred entrance to synagogues worldwide. [1] The largest Jewish religious court in the world court called upon the public to disassociate themselves with Friedman and his peers and said "What they did there is a simple crime against humanity.”[3] The courts declaration stated that these people “dared attend a special conference of the nations of the world that despise Israel (may the names of the evil rot), deny the Holocaust, and deny and belittle the immensity of the evil and murder of those killed for sanctifying the lord; they desecrated the name of the heavens.” [4] In 2006, Friedman participated in the controversial International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust and made statements questioning the Holocaust, and scope of the Holocaust. [4] [5] He believes that the figure of 6 million deaths during The Holocaust is from a prophecy made before World War II.[3] Following the event, every other Jewish attendee of the conference apologized for their behavior, except Friedman who returned to hug and kiss Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad again a few months after the conference. [6] The Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger called for Jews to excommunicate Friedman and all members of Neturei Karta.[2] Friedman has claimed to lead an Orthodox community in Austria,[7] but has been described by the established Jewish community of Austria, as well as Brooklyn Rabbis as an extremist who represents only himself" [8] [9] [10] Friedman’s children were expelled from the Talmud-Torah school they were attending in Austria where the family lived.[7] Jewish media in the UK has reported that there is a ruling in Jewish religious court worldwide to not permit Friedman's children into any Jewish schools. [12] In 2012, while living in Antwerp, he went to court and won a case that ordered a Jewish school for girls to admit his two sons or face heavy fines.[11]

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 2.^ a b c Boycott Jews who attended Iran conference, top rabbi urges, CBC, December 14, 2006. 3.^ a b Robert Tait (11 December 2006). "Holocaust deniers gather in Iran for 'scientific' conference". The Guardian. Retrieved 30 December 2012. 4.^ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 5.^ Fathi, Nazila. "Israel Fading, Iran's Leader Tells Deniers Of Holocaust", The New York Times, December 13, 2006. Accessed February 27, 2008. 6.^ http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html 7.^ a b Anna Claessen (March 7, 2007). "Rabbi Friedman’s Complaint". The Vienna Review. Retrieved 30 December 2012. 8.^ http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 9.^ http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/ 10.^ http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/ 11.^ JTA (December 29th, 2012). "Antwerp Jewish Girls School Forced to Admit Holocaust Denier’s Boys or Pay Fine". Jewish Press. Retrieved 30 December 2012. 12.^ http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/96368/school-told-admit-sons-neturei-rabbi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 22:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

• Per WP:BLP there is very little that is salvageable - see the recent edit trimming out everything that is disputed. Is he an anti-Zionist? Being in favor of giving Israel to the Palestinians does not make someone an anti-Zionist. As to whether he is a Rabbi or not is another question. I think if you asked him he would say he is, and there appear to be reliable sources calling him one. Basically there are always people who say bad things about someone, for example using swear words, it simply is not notable, unless they are a politician running for office. The press can quote exactly what any politician running for office says. But we need to find it in a Reliable Source. Apteva (talk) 06:19, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
  • BLP does not mean that one cannot say bad things about people. There are many sources on him being against the Jews from the largest Jewish religious court, to chief rabbi of Israel to no school in Europe taking him. How can none of that be relevant but an obscure vienna paper an accetped source?Tellyuer1 (talk) 14:07, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Sources Matter & BLP Clarification

I can call myself the pope it doesnt make me the pope. This man is not a rabbi and there is clearly disagreement if he is. Your opening lead doesnt have a source. How can you maintain it? What makes him noteable you wont allow on his page claiming (wrongly) BLP. So why does he have a wiki page bc he's a rabbi who attended a conference? So What?Tellyuer1 (talk) 14:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I thought what made him notable is his attendance at the conference and the subsequent backlash. That is covered in the article, even if it's not summarized in the intro. —C.Fred (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Can editors include any reliable sources here so others can review them and help with editing this article accordingly? Thank you, --Malerooster (talk) 14:46, 5 January 2013 (UTC)ps, I actually see a few above, so thats a start I guess. --Malerooster (talk) 14:46, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources, and as I understand it BLP doesnt say cant make anything negative part of story. He's noteable bc attended holocaust denial conf so call the conference what it is and he who he is extremist.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/ http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/ http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/96368/school-told-admit-sons-neturei-rabbi Tellyuer1 (talk) 15:05, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Three Specific Proposals

1: lead says he is a "rabbi from New York." Says WHO ? There are clearly sources saying he isnt a rabbi. Shouldnt both sides be presented? 2: At end, within discussion about kids school - This source: http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/96368/school-told-admit-sons-neturei-rabbi - Says: "Afterwards, he was treated as persona non grata by the Jewish community in his then home city of Vienna. His children were effectively barred from Jewish schools there. The Friedmans reportedly moved to Antwerp in 2012." So why not say schools had barred him previously ? It doesnt make sense to include info on suit. Why did he have to sue ? Doesnt make sense without context. 3: Holocaust statements. He did deny the Holocaust here - http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 - why arent the statements calling Holocaust false included ? This article has whitewashed the reason Friedman is noteable.Am very emotional about the Holocaust and it should be factual.Tellyuer1 (talk) 16:51, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

In 2006, he participated in the controversial International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust, with his position that "I am not a denier of the Holocaust, but I think it is legitimate to cast doubt on some statistics."[1] He believes that the figure of 6 million deaths during The Holocaust is from a prophecy made before World War II; and that the actual figure is closer to one million deaths.[2] His participation led the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yona Metzger, to call for Jews to shun Friedman and all members of Neturei Karta.[3] As a result of his participation, his children were expelled from the Talmud-Torah school they were attending in Austria where the family lived.[4]

After leading an Orthodox community in Austria,[4] he moved to Antwerp. In 2012, while living in Antwerp, he went to court and won a case that ordered a Jewish school for girls to admit his two sons or face heavy fines.[5] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs)

Small irony: your first point is that no sources call him a rabbi. Yet the first source you cite in your second point refers to him as "a rabbi from the extremist Neturei Karta sect."[3] —C.Fred (talk) 17:00, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for not being clear. He calls himself a rabbi and so does some (mistaken) media - he isnt. In the lead he's called a rabbi without a source. if he's called a rabbi there should also be something which says he isnt thats all. because its in dispute.

Also, as with much about this Friedman there are many differing details. Current draft says he moved - but it doesnt say to NY. he was sued when living in NY and thats also relevant. Also should his Ahmenijad friendship be included?Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/jad_pal_rabbi_deadbeat_pIkRzNIPYkJiUvGMMr6kOO

The sources do not say his children were expelled after a Jewish court decreed it, I have had enough of your POV pushing and BLP vios. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The sources DO SAY NO SCHOOL would take them. Both of them.

(edit conflict) Actually, the New York Post doesn't say he lived in the apartments, just that he rented them. Friedman does claim in a quote that he lived in them, but the paper never states that he lived there. —C.Fred (talk) 17:09, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

There are 2 supporting articles saying they moved from NY. Not Antwerp. Largest Israeli paper and NY Post more reliable than Vienna local rag?Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:23, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

If we weren't so busy cleaning up your three-revert rule violations, we'd have more time to catch the sources and pick up on that. —C.Fred (talk) 17:25, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

have been waiting many many days and Malik and Darkness Shines keep adding blogs and obscure papers. Am happy to wait on more edits as long as they do also. Review my sources and proof. Vienna Review is some obscure paper. NY Post and largest Israeli papers are pretty clear. Friedman is noteable bc hes done something very radical. that isnt a violation of BLP. Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:28, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

my language and sources are all clear havent even come close to violating 3RR rule when I introduce new sources. Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

You are on nine reverts and need to be indefinitely blocked, this on top of your sockpuppetry is enough.. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:36, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

NY Post Lawsuit

TheRedPenOfDoom wrote "this is just a filing of a suit that may have no merit" - absolutely inaccurate. It is a judgement which was made, and Friedman lost. Wasnt a filing. Was a decision. Shows they moved to NY and then to Antwerp. But that ruling in court must stay and is relevant. NY post is a major paper (certainly more than Vienna Review?) Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:40, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

"he must cough up $17,050 in back rent or face eviction, Judge Bruce Scheckowitz ruled in housing court last week." So clearly its not a filing of a suit and should be added. Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It would help if it were reported in another paper. See the New York Post article for concerns about the credibility of the Post—concerns which TRPoD also raised. —C.Fred (talk) 17:48, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The source for him leading a community is "The Vienna Review" a monthly newsletter. A service of the "Open Society Institute" should not be a wiki source and surely is less reliable than NY Post. Shouldnt that about him leading a community be removed. :::And you have original documents here showing he was evicted: http://rabbimoshefriedman.com/

NY Post is one of largest papers in America. And surely if they arent reliable neither is Vienna Review. Tellyuer1 (talk) 17:56, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

The rabbimoshefriedman.com website is unacceptable as a source, and legal documents—including eviction proceedings—should not be used as sources. —C.Fred (talk) 17:59, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok but NY post is a major paper and the judge ruled. That must be there for balance. How can Vienna Review an obscure newsletter be allowed saying he led a community.Tellyuer1 (talk) 18:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Ny Post edit MUST be readded. Shows a lawsuit and a judgement was removed bc he said was a filing. Its not. And remove obscurbe vienna review newsletter.

Great sources in general: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/neturei-karta-delegate-to-iranian-holocaust-conference-i-pray-for-israel-s-destruction-in-peaceful-ways-1.209305 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3471654,00.html http://www.nysun.com/new-york/cold-reception-for-jew-who-embraced-iran/46739/ http://www.nysun.com/foreign/world-leaders-express-outrage-on-iranian/45032/ http://www.thejc.com/news/world-news/96368/school-told-admit-sons-neturei-rabbi Tellyuer1 (talk) 18:14, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Der Standard editorial on Friedman: http://derstandard.at/3007788 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 18:25, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Where is he?

Is he right now in New York City or in Antwerp? The article is pretty self-contradictory as is. -- YPNYPN ✡ 04:57, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Hamas Partnership

Where/how should his proposed financial and political support of Hamas be added? http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-250_162-1616373.html http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishFeatures/Article.aspx?id=298941

Also largest Austrian paper says he doesnt pay his bills - Relevant? http://derstandard.at/3007788 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tellyuer1 (talk • contribs) 22:47, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

The piece from Der Standard cannot be used as a source: it's from an op-ed column rather than a traditional article. —C.Fred (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2013 (UTC)