Talk:Mughrabi Quarter

Requested move 5 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Favonian (talk) 12:42, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

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Moroccan Quarter → Mughrabi Quarter – this might be a wider topic relating to translating names from their original languages while taking their historical context into account. in this particular case the historical context is around north west african presence in jerusalem, and the original language being arabic.

re history - pilgrims from the maghreb (the northwestern region of africa that comprised what is now known as morocco, mauretania, western sahara, algeria, tunisia, and sometimes libya) had an age-old connection with jerusalem. several notable berbers had settled in jerusalem under the fatimids (909–1171), a dynasty led by algerian kutama and sanhadja (telkata sub branch specifically) berber tribes. soon later the eldest son of the great saladin, endowed the maghrabi quarter (literally the "quarter of the people from the west" when translated from arabic) in 1187 and granted free residency for life to berbers from north africa, as well as to their descendants, as a reward for their help in defeating the crusaders and as an effort to repopulate jerusalem with a muslim population. in 1320, a descendant of the famous algerian sufi mystic, abu madyan, created another charitable waqf for the benefit of the mughrabi quarter.

re language - maghrib is a transliteration of the arab word that refers to northwest africa (literally means "west"). it was also chosen by the monarchs of the modern state of marocco to name their unified kingdoms of marakkesh and fes as "kingdom of mughrib" (as opposed to mughrib aqsa or far west as it was known historical and to differentiate it from "maghrib awsat" which would describe algeria and "maghrib adna" which would describe tunisia and libya).

naming morocco "maghrib" in their arab official name is what leads to this and many other confusions in translations from arabic to romance langugages, an issue we don't really find in other languages (in turkish morrocco is still called "fas".. which is more accurate).

in the light of all those historical and linguistic facts, i'm proposing to permanently move this article to where it should be (confusion-less and historically and linguistically accurate naming, as opposed to current misleading and inaccurately translated name). Dzlinker \,,/(*_*)\,,/ 12:47, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

• Procedural Oppose the nom obviously feels strongly about this; having made this proposal a decade ago, and making it again after their copy-paste move was (correctly) reverted. Unfortunately, there is no argument to move the article here. There is overlap between Morocco and the Maghreb, both in geography and as concepts; however that tells us nothing about the name of a part of the city of Jerusalem. Without any actual evidence for a move (such as references to scholarly sources that use the desired name), I must oppose per the arguments from a decade ago. If the nom does provide evidence that this is the common name in English, this comment can be discounted. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 23:15, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
  • thanks mate - here are few academic papers around that topic that refer to that part of the wall as "mughrabi" (there are hundreds ifnot thousands out there tbh): [1] [2] [3] - hope this helps? -Dzlinker \,,/(*_*)\,,/ 23:27, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
  • what do we mean here by overlap between maghreb and morocco? there is an inclusion element (not overlap) as morocco is a small full part of the maghreb (?) -Dzlinker \,,/(*_*)\,,/ 23:27, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
    • Thanks. As there's some sourcing behind the argument, I will switch to abstaining. The biggest issue is that, even if it is clearly "al-maghrabi" in Arabic, English language sources might have (somewhat inaccurately) translated that as Moroccan so frequently that the English name is "Moroccan". Morocco is located in the Maghreb, but other areas not part of Morocco (either currently or historically) are also in that region. As I speak no Arabic and try to avoid any linguistics-related issue that overlap with Israel/Palestine topics, I will not vote or comment further. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 23:57, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

thanks, powera - just to add/reiterate that the latin name morocco comes from marakesh (thru the spaniards), the arabic name maghreb comes from arabic for "west", and that's where all those confusions come from, the arabic name should be "mughrib aqsa" for "far west", as mughrib historically designed the area from libya to marakesh, more etymological content can be found here! :) [4]. to put things in perspective morocco is a half million sqkm country and 30 million in population, the maghreb is over 6 million sqkm and over 100 million in population.. so marocco is a small part of it, and historically was part of the fatimid dynasty (algerian/tunisian) that was ruling around the time this quarter was built. hope this helps :) Dzlinker \,,/(*_*)\,,/ 10:36, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support I think Dzlinker has said it all, everything is clear and there is nothing to add other idea. For me, I agree for the renaming of the page in Mughrabi, it is very logical that it is more correct. --Fayçal.09 (talk) 12:02, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support. This appears to be its most common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:17, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.