Talk:Oldham Branch Railway

Trains: in UK Low‑importance

Trains Portal

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. See also: WikiProject Trains to do list and the Trains Portal.TrainsWikipedia:WikiProject TrainsTemplate:WikiProject Trainsrail transport articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Associated projects or task forces:
/
	This article is supported by WikiProject UK Railways (assessed as Low-importance).

Railway or Branch?

The Middleton Junction and Oldham Branch Railway never existed, the line was a branch line of the Manchester and Leeds Railway. The page should be renamed Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway Oldham Branch or Manchester and Leeds Railway Oldham Branch (the L&NWR also had an Oldham Branch) or simply be put in the M&LR page under the sub heading of Middleton Junction and Oldham Branch replacing the existing Oldham branch section, with some suitable editing, most of this information is duplicated there. I'll propose the renaming. Nempnet (talk) 12:47, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Oldham Branch Railway, which was identified in the discussion as a WP:CONCISE and accurate alternative title. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:54, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Middleton Junction and Oldham Branch Railway → Middleton Junction and Oldham Branch – The Middleton Junction and Oldham Branch Railway never existed, the line was a branch line of the Manchester and Leeds Railway. Nempnet (talk) 12:55, 13 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 03:02, 21 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 06:33, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have any sources for either name? Middleton Junction didn't get that name until 1852, ten years after the branch opened. Checking

Marshall, John (1969). The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, volume 1. Newton Abbot: David & Charles. pp. 58–59. ISBN 0-7153-4352-1.
—— (1970). The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway, volume 2. Newton Abbot: David & Charles. pp. 13–15, 282. ISBN 0-7153-4906-6.

I find the line referred to as the Oldham branch of the Manchester & Leeds Railway, or simply as the Oldham branch. The relevant Act is 2 & 3 Vic cap. lv, or Manchester and Leeds Railway Act 1839. This uses the formal description: to make and maintain a Branch from and out of the said Manchester and Leeds Railway to Oldham, commencing in or near a certain Field in the Township of Chadderton in the Parish of Prestwich, otherwise Prestwich-cum-Oldham in the said County Palatine of Lancaster ... and terminating at Mumps within the Township of Oldham in the same Parish (pp. 1202-3, section II). In the margin of that page it says Oldham branch, but the rest of that Act is inconsistent, with various terms being used: the said Branch Railway Oldham branch; Oldham Branch Railway; branch to Oldham; Branch Line of Railway to Oldham. Nowhere do we find the name Middleton Junction used. I've not tallied the various uses (the phrases are found between pages 1202 and 1267), but I think that Oldham Branch Railway is both concise and accurate, and moreover is explicitly used in several places in the text of the authorising Act. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:39, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The only references I have for the name "Middleton Junction and Oldham Branch" are the OS mapping;

Lancashire XCVI.8 (Map). 25 inch to the mile. Ordnance Survey. 1922.
Lancashire XCVII.5 (Map). 25 inch to the mile. Ordnance Survey. 1922.

I agree that Oldham Branch Railway is a sensible option but I was trying to avoid a clash with the L&NWR Oldham Branch from Greenfield.Nempnet (talk) 19:18, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For which the relevant Act is 9 & 10 Vic cap. ccclxxx, or Huddersfield and Manchester Railway and Canal (Oldham Branch) Act 1846. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:00, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My main concern with the existing name is that it implies the branch was a 'railway company' in its own right, although the article doesn't actually state that. I think the best option for the article is that it become part of the Manchester and Leeds Railway article, which already duplicates a lot of what is in this article. I would undertake to do the editing in such an eventuality. Nempnet (talk) 09:47, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're certainly correct in saying that it was never a railway company in its own right; the relevant Act (linked above) clearly shows that it was an extension to the Manchester and Leeds Railway - the long title is An Act for extending and for altering the Line of the Manchester and Leeds Railway, and for making Branches therefrom; and for amending the Acts relating thereto. The same goes for the LNWR's Oldham branch - An Act for enabling the Huddersfield and Manchester Railway and Canal Company to make a Branch Railway from their Main Line of Railway to Oldham. Neither of these Acts creates a new company - under UK law, the text of an Act of Parliament cannot authorise (or prohibit) anything not encompassed by the long title. However, the first one does have the phrase "and for amending the Acts relating thereto", which is a kind of get-out; even more so would be the phrase "and for connected purposes" often seen in the long titles of many other Acts. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 10:45, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Trains has been notified of this discussion. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} 06:34, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.