Talk:Mašićka Šagovina killings

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Croatian National Guard

Croatian National Guard does not link this page, no killings. Good article. Xx236 (talk) 10:32, 4 February 2022 (UTC) 'on 3 November the ZNG was renamed the Croatian Army (Hrvatska vojska)' - so this article should probably say 'Croatian Army'.Xx236 (talk) 14:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

suspect context

This is a bit suspect - there's no mention of these events at https://snv.hr/ratni-zlocini-nad-srbima-1991-1995/ --Joy (talk) 14:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Google searches like zločini nad srbima operacija orkan u šagovini also bring up nothing other than Veritas website, so I'm a bit more suspicious. Surely someone would have written more about this. --Joy (talk) 14:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The best I could find is this 2013 exhumation article in Balkan Insight at [1] where it said both Croatian and Serbian government representatives were present, but doesn't go into value judgements about the deaths at all.

There was another identification of two people from Mašićka Šagovina in 2016 [2] but likewise Pronađene žrtve su stradale u periodu između 1991. i 1995. godine, ali tačan datum i okolnosti njihove smrti nisu poznati. - the victims found died between 1991 and 1995, but the exact date and circumstances of their death are not known.

--Joy (talk) 10:07, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Number of people killed

The article notes 55 murdered in the killings. The source used to back this claim says:

U toku borbe za “prokletu utvrdu”, kako su Hrvati, zbog njenog izuzetnog geostrateškog položaja zvali Mašićku Šagovinu, Zenge su u toku dana, zahvaljujući i činjenici da su branioci sa meštanima slavili Svetog Nikolu, ovladali celim mestom. Tom prilikom su, prema srpskim izvorima, likvidirali najmanje 55 ljudi, među kojima 31 civila i pripadnika TO iz ovog sela.

This translates as "In the course of fighting for the 'cursed fortress' as Mašićka Šagovina was called by the Croats due to its exceptional geostrategic position, the (Croatian ZNG troops) gained control of the entire settlement in the course of the day due to the fact that the defenders (meaning the SAO Western Slavonia Territorial Defense Forces, 'TO' for short) were celebrating the (feast of) St Nicholas. On that occasion, according to Serbian sources, they liquidated at least 55 people including 31 civilians and TO troops from this village."

The problem is that "on that occasion" ("tom prilikom" in the original) italicised above is ambiguos and it may as well mean "in the course of the fighting for the village and during the rest of the day", i.e. even if the referenced article's claim is taken at face value as reliable, it is unclear if it includes combat (military and collateral civilian) casualties or not.

The term "likvidirali" (literally "liquidated", meaning killed) is ambiguous as it is used in Serbian sources in the sense of "summarily killed" as well as killed in other circumstances, e.g. this B92 article on a different war [3] explicitly used the same term to refer to combat deaths.

The referenced article goes on to specify 16 people killed (by name) after the capture of the village by the ZNG. It mentions 13 killed ZNG troops in the fighting, but never mentions the number of TO casualties in the fighting for the village reportedly of strategic importance (nor that there were no combat casualties) -- which gives an impression that the figure of 55 killed includes the combat casualties. -- Tomobe03 (talk) 09:30, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]