Talk:Loukas Vagias

Source that doesn't meet wp:histrs

It appears that the local online newspaper Gazeta Odria, isn't a source that meets wp:HISTRS. I hope I'll fix this the following hours with academic-level material.Alexikoua (talk) 15:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

The newspaper is a monthly issue with news from Lunxheri regions and its people everywhere. It is fine, though I know you don't like it.

The newspaper is not online only, it is printed. Regarding certain historical figures, they publish material, though stay away from any political aspect. For instance, they publish materials about Zappa and others, showing the region's distinguished people, even though usually in Albania Zappa is mentioned in a negative context.Mondiad (talk) 21:44, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

You confirmed that this is just a local newspaper, but we need to follow per wp:HISTRS. Although the events cited can be confirmed by academic level sources, so there aren't any pov issues with the present form of the article. However, since we have academic level material available, sources such as local newspapers have no place here. In general it's not if someone likes it or not, but how to create a decent encyclopedia.Alexikoua (talk) 22:12, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

He is considered also as Greek

Well, it seems that, at least, Henry Holland, considered him as Greek ( see p. 256 ). We have to add this helpful information to the article. Pavlos1988 (talk) 22:11, 19 January 2015 (UTC):

Page 256 - this is Ioannes Velara, a native of Ioannina, and a man well known in the community of modern Greeks.... - He is talking about Velara, not Bia, read page 256 again,

Page 257 - Through the medium of Velara and Bia, we were enabled to carry on a conversation with the Archbishop, who himself did not speak any other language rather than the Romaic and Albanese... - he is mentioning Bia as Albanian speaking. Mondiad (talk) 01:39, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

You should read it again my friend!

We had not been long settled in the house... before two other physicians came in to visit us, BOTH GREEKS and one of them remarkable...This was Ioannes Velara...Our other visitor was Lucas Bia...

According to Holland the two Greek physicians were Vilaras and Vagias.

Holland refers to the bishop of Larissa as a person who knew only Greek and Albanian, not to Vilaras or Vagias. Even if it is possible, the case that Vagias was a speaker of albanian here is a hypothesis, not a fact.

P.S. Also, the fact that someone speaks a language p.e. albanian doesn't make him also Albanian. Many Greeks of Ali pasha's court like Karaiskakis or Alexios Noutsos ( who were not even Arvanites ) knew albanian but they were not Albanians. More personally, I am also a person who understands and speaks ( at some point ) albanian but I am not Albanian nor Arvanitis. :) Pavlos1988 (talk) 02:22, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

The same as they are mentioned as "Greeks" does not mean Greek ethnicity. Greeks and Turks were widely used to spot religious background, as being and Orthodox and not being considered Greek was highly improbably. The same logic you try to use for Thanas Vaya, and name him as Greek (Thanas Vagias). The fact is that Lekli is an Albanian village, and has nothing to do with any Greek minority zone, i.e. Dropulli.

As for Karaiskakis, are you sure he wasn't an Arvanite? And where did they learn Albanian, at school? At the church? Mondiad (talk) 14:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

1.If you have any thoughts about Karaiskakis, look at Karaiskakis' talk page. If you are an open minded person and not a typical albanian chauvinist of the internet, you will get the answer that you are seeking.

2.As about Thanasis Vagias, I ' ve posted a source with a Vagias' letter to the notables of Delvinaki. If you understand greek, then by reading that letter you will see that Vagias' considered himself not only as a person with the same religion with Delvinaki's people but also as a person of the same ethnicity.

3.I am aware that p.e. the greek nationalistic opinion that wants every orthodox of South Albania to be Greek is wrong ( p.e. according to my opinion it's ridiculous that in some greek sources Themistoklis Germeni is considered as a traitor ). But here, if you read again my reference from Holland you' ll find that Holland mentions the bishop of Larissa as Albanian but considers Vagias as Greek, just like Vilaras. By that, it is obvious that when Holland calls Vagias Greek, he refers to his nationality, not his religion.Pavlos1988 (talk) 15:56, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

It's quite interesting that Holland mentions metropolitan Polycarpos "as of Albanian birth". Obviously according to Holland Greek doesn't simply mean Orthodox but it's related with ethnicity. For the record Polycarpos was born in Dardha. He was hanged by the Turks in 1821 and latter proclaimed neomartyr.Alexikoua (talk) 20:33, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Mondiad, Karaiskakis was a Sarakatsani Greek, a fact well known. Most of the Klephts in central and western Greece, were Sarakatsani, who even happen to be the most prominent. Karaiskakis learned the art of guerilla warfare as member of the band of Katsantonis, another famous Sarakatsani Klepht. Furthermore, it is not at all strange that Karaiskakis knew the Albanian language after so many years in the Court of Ali Pasha. As the local (from Grammeno village in Ioannina) and contemporary Anastasios Goudas (1816-1882) tells us, "Οἱ μὲν ὑπὸ τὸν Ἀλῆ Πασσᾶν Προεστοὶ ἢ ὑπάλληλοι π.χ. ἐμάνθανον καλῶς τὴν Ἀλβανικήν· ἅπαντες δὲ σχεδὸν οἱ Φαναριῶται, τὴν Τουρκικήν·" (source), which translates as "The employees under Ali Pasha learned Albanian well, and almost all the Phanariots, Turkish". Nothing out of the ordinary. Demetrios1993 (talk) 13:55, 12 December 2020 (UTC)