Talk:List of TNA World Champions

Missing Champions

This article should have ALL the TNA World Heavyweight Champions, from Ken Shamrock. Weird that it doesn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 15:26, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

That was not the TNA Title. Those are on the NWA List.--WillC 01:25, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

You are wrong. TNA's website lists them as being TNA World Heavyweight Champions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 09:17, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Well first, thats TNA's revisionist view. Its not fact. The fact is they were not TNA World Heavyweight Championship reigns as the title didn't exist until May 2007. Also, TNA don't have a title history on their website. So you are wrong. This is an encyclopedia, we list facts...not made up views.--WillC 00:46, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

The present TNA website does not have the "Champions history"page, although they used to, and it started with Shamrock. There were webarchive links to it, which were on wikipedia, but now seem to be gone(hmmmm?)

However, the TNA site does contain such things as:

http://www.impactwrestling.com/roster/Wrestler-Roster/item/1583-jeff-jarrett

Notice that? "Jarrett has stacked up 6 TNA World Heavyweight Championships". Not NWA, but TNA.

or

http://www.impactwrestling.com/roster/Wrestler-Roster/item/1561-sting

Notice that? "He captured the TNA World Heavyweight Title three consecutive years at Bound for Glory as his territory. Each victory would continue to cement his legacy as he defeated Jeff Jarrett, Kurt Angle, and Samoa Joe"

As far as "TNA's revisionist view. It's not fact." Well, THEIR OWN WEBSITE says that those guys were TNA World Heavyweight Champions. Just because you read something somewhere else, doesn't make it so. We need to go with TNA themselves day, not some revisionist fanboy website that makes the term "Reliable Source" look quite frankly ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 06:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Or from Ken Shamrock's website:

http://www.kenshamrock.com/biography/

Notice "TNA World Heavyweight Champion". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 13:45, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is the question, what title was won on June 19, 2002 by Ken Shamrock???? The NWA World Heavyweight Championship. That is a fact. It was not the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. TNA has tried to rewrite history, that is the point of a revisionist view. They want it to seem Jarrett was a 6 time TNA Champion. Its factually known through history that he won the NWA World Heavyweight Championship and never won the TNA Title yet since it was CREATED IN MAY 2007. We go by actual history, not what TNA wants people to think is history. If you would like to see the champions that were in TNA beforehand, see List of NWA World Heavyweight Champions, as this list never had those champions included. How do I know? I'm the one who helped create it, I'm also the one who expanded it to what it is today. You can't rewrite what is actually the truth, what actually happened.--WillC 03:57, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. I seem to remember something about "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth - whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." Where did that come from? Quite apart from the fact that it is also true that Shamrock was the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion, it is also VERIFIED.

Your claims of "it is known through history" are unsourced. As far as "How do i know? I'm ther one who helped create it." that is not only unsourced, but also pretty arrogant.

Going by WP:RS this article needs to begin with Shamrock. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 05:27, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

TNA COULD start claiming tomorrow that they were founded in 1932, making it the oldest promotion in the world, but that wouldn't change what actually happened and it's not like it can't be verified (through reliable third party sources) that Shamrock (and everyone after him until 2007) won the NWA World Heavyweight Championship, not the TNA World Heavyweight Championship:

Pro Wrestling Torch: "Ken Shamrock beat Malace to end a 20 man Gauntlet for the Gold battle royal to capture the vacant NWA World Heavyweight Title" WrestleView: "Gauntlet For The Gold (Winner will be declared new NWA World Heavyweight Champion)". This is why third party sources are always preferred over self published material.TheFBH (talk) 07:33, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

You want it verified, that is a simple task. What you can't do is verify that those were TNA World Heavyweight Championship reigns. Like you just said, Shamrock was the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. You can verify he was the first world champion in TNA, but it was an NWA reign. You can verify that TNA believes today he was the first TNA World Champion. Meanwhile, every single source that covers him winning on that day will say NWA World Heavyweight Championship. Video footage of the match directly from TNA will most likely say NWA World Heavyweight Championship. Verifying something usually makes it fact. That is why I say fact. Going by reliable sources, this article needs to stay as it is, unless you can give sources from each win showing that at those times, it was the TNA Title, not the NWA Title, which is impossible. You are arguing to go by TNA's current revisionist view which is not what happened according to reliable third party sources, as well as video directly from TNA. It could be included in this article that TNA views those reigns as TNA Title reigns, but we don't even have a source that the "CURRENTLY" do view it that way. We have one that they "DID AT ONE POINT".--WillC 08:41, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that either of those really count as WP:RS. And speaking of the NWA, their own lineages are revisionist garbage, yet Wikipedia goes by the NWA website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 10:00, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

PWT and WV are considered reliable sources on here. There is an issue, the NWA list has not been worked on. There are several known issues that are wrong with it. While this is currently a Featured List, in which it was reviewed by several other editors here on wikipedia to establish if the sources were reliable, the information was correct, and if it passed the FL criteria. PW Torch, WV, and Slam are used in the article, all were considered reliable and have been considered reliable for a long time. This same issue we are talking about, has been discussed a billion times, as well as when the title was actually created. This issue has been resolved countless time and agreements have been made. An agreement was made to make a list of all whcs in tna, but it has yet too as there was no one to do it and it isn't really needed currently.--WillC 11:41, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

PWT is an internet collection of IWC stories and POV. Hardly reliable. WV is a fansite that has no connection to a recognised respected media outlet. Slam is another issue, but there are Reliable Sources disproving that. As far as "not needed currently", well certainly it IS, as that is the truth, as listed by TNA's own site, Shamrock's own site, and others that can be listed. Put that in your pipe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 20:34, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Its a shame you haven't figured out you are also apart of the IWC. We've established our reliable sources on here and you must go by the consensus established. That is how wikipedia works. You have yet to list a reliable source, and it seems if it doesn't help your argument than it is not reliable. The burden of proof is up to you, you must prove those reigns were TNA title reigns, you have yet to show that is the title that was fought over each time. TNA currently does not have a title history on its website. Even if it did, it doesn't change the fact we have sources that prove it to be revisionist. One source involving Shamrock against countless saying otherwise, changes nothing. Slam Sports is owned by Canadian Online Explorer establishing not only reliability but notability. That list is not needed currently, as two list exist giving the same information. The truth is what can be sourced and shown to be the exact events. The exact events are Shamrock was the first NWA Champion in TNA, the NWA Title was pulled in May 2007. The TNA Title was created afterwards and has been in use since. Those are the actual events. If you can't see that, then you obviously have no business telling us what is truth, as you are arguing that something existed before it was ever mentioned by its own company.--WillC 20:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Who is "we"? "You must go by the consensus established"? Is that like "i says so therefore it is"? The fact is that I HAVE provided Reliable Sources. whereas you have fanboy websites Juts because you said yours FIRST doesn't make it true. "I call that it was the NWA Title lol". Sorry, YOUR sources are the questionable ones. "You have yet to list a reliable source"? I listed Reliable Sources(plural), where are yours? As far as number of sources, so what? One source from a respected and reliable Source is worth more than a thousand fanboy websites run by basement-dwelling smart marks. Put that in your pipe.

You listed Ken Shamrock's personal website, that is only reliable regrading Shamrock. TNA is a primary source, not a third party. OWOW is not considered a reliable source, its questionable at best as well as 411 Mania. The Slam statement is one issue of miss interpatation. It was not saying Cage was the TNA World Heavyweight Champion, it was referring to the fact he was TNA's heavyweight champion. Meanwhile we showed PW Torch and WrestleView, two sites which are used in Featured Articles, Featured Lists, and Good Articles, meaning they have been proven reliable. By consensus it means a group of editors who have agreed on a subject. Try looking at the archives of this page, as well as at WT:PW. The issue is, you are a newbie and do not understand anything that goes on here. You consistently are trying to rewrite history, which is just plain idiotic. You can never source every reign as a TNA Title reign at the time it occurred. You can only say TNA recognizes them now as such. You may want to check these links out, 1, 2, 3, and there can easily be more to come from that regarding TNA's revisionist views.--WillC 06:55, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Wait, if "TNA is a primary source, not a third party", WHY did you give links to TNA? And surely TNA have the right of their OWN history? In fact, I know about the "what about x?" rule, but when pressed about the NWA's own absurd revisionism, the response is generally "The NWA have the right to present their own title histories!"

As far as the Slam!Wrestling link, it is outrageous for you to say what that writer was thinking. And, it wasn't referring to Christian, it was referring to Raven! So, you don't even read the sources(or are unable to comprehend what they mean) yet you claim to be the expert and be-all-end-all on the subject! Here's the exact line from the article :"Raven won the TNA heavyweight title over AJ Styles". NOT "The Heavyweight Title in TNA", but "the TNA heavyweight title". As far as "what is a reliable source?" you have shown what a joke your "policy" is. If something does not gel with your prejudiced view it is "not reliable" or "questionable". However, any fanboy website is "reliable" if it corresponds with your preconceived notions. You haven't refuted anything. You've just shown how self-contradictory and insulting you are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 07:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

http://www.wrestlingclique.com/wrestling-news-rumors/1035-total-nonstop-action-naturals-andy-douglas-talks-hate-high-spots-bret-hart-his-future-more.html

(from March 2006, mentioning the "TNA Champion Chrisian Cage")

http://www.prowrestling.net/artman/publish/DotNetDaily/article10019116.shtml

http://www.wrestlingclique.com/booker/131989-exponents-total-nonstop-action-2009-present.html

http://wrestling.insidepulse.com/2009/03/12/total-nonstop-weekly-03122009/

(Rapid Fire)

http://wrestling.insidepulse.com/2007/04/26/66917/

(again predates when you claim the TNA Championship started)

http://fightnetwork.com/news/wrestling/tna-impact-report-for-nov-18-flair-is-god/

http://www.pwinsiderxtra.com/ViewArticle.php?id=15422&p=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 10:18, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Kurt Angle's title reigns

Can we have the TNA recognised title reigns, perhaps in brackets after the wikipedia-recognised title reigns? For example, "Kurt Angle - 2 (1)" and an explanation that TNA view Angle for title win being for the NWA/World title, and the rest being for the TNA title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.198.97 (talk) 13:30, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

We have no way to source this today. What is currently in the article, is the sourced TNA's view at the time of the reign. He was TNA champion, stripped of the title, then won the title again at Slammiversary.--WillC 20:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Er, you said above that that was the NWA Title, and the TNA Title was only unveiled afterwards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 20:32, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

How the events when were as so, Christian Cage was the NWA Champion, the president of the NWA pulled the title from TNA, leaving Cage the last champion of a title owned by the NWA, not TNA. Title match at Sacrifice was for the "World Heavyweight Championship". Angle wins match. On Impact Angle is called the "TNA World Heavyweight Champion". He is then stripped of the title by Cornette. Reference in article shows press release over him being stripped. Making the title reign official. Angle goes on to Slammiversary to win King of the Mountain, winning the title for a second time. TNA ceases to recognize first reign afterwards.--WillC 20:57, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

But you have no source, that is WP:OR and WP:POV! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 09:15, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

• Source Official TNA. 187.116.55.168 (talk) 04:13, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you WillC? if you are, you've just shot yourself in the foot. TNA DID have their official Title Histories on their website, and that link SHOWS THAT EVERYONE FROM SHAMROCK ON WAS TNA WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION. This article needs to start being reworked ASAP. By the way, all the links on the article are either dead, or state only that those people won the TNA Title. WillC's points are not backed up by those links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 06:11, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

The question is, do you even listen to yourself? The title never existed then. That is the issue. Those reigns will not be included as we've already had a consensus (agreement) established prior to not. You saying to included them does not over turn that. TNA use to view it that way then yes, it doesn't matter. The reigns are still not TNA Title reigns. Get that through your head, I can't believe someone can be that ignorant. We do not go by TNA's official view on things, we go by what actually happened. We note these types of things. As for the Angle reign, try looking at this.--WillC 06:43, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

That link states that Angle was stripped of the TNA World Title in May 2007. Your point is? You are also very rude, making personal insults. All I am doing is showing sources that stated that people DID refer to the title as the TNA World Title at least as far back as 2005. Getting back to 2002 will be more difficult with the amount of spam on the web, as well as that many websites then may no longer exist. Your response is to go on about a mythical "consensus" and make personal insults. And then give a link referring to the "TNA World Title". Hmmmm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 07:16, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

You know what, this conversation is done. You want to say I'm insulting when you've said stick that in your pipe several times. You obviously do not understand what we are saying. FBH and I have explain things to you. A consensus was established, which is in the archives of this page. You have established nothing. "TNA heavyweight title" can be taken several ways. But even if its referring to the nwa title as the TNA Title, we have a link directly from TNA that shows they recognized the NWA World Title. You need to understand, no matter how much you argue it, the TNA Title DID NOT EXIST UNTIL MAY 2007. The link given is about the subject at had in this section. This section is over Angle, not Shamrock. If you want links, I can obviously and easily give way more links establishing my argument than you ever will be able too as I've been involved in this argument for 3 years.--WillC 23:06, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

"TNA heavyweight Title" can only be taken one way. Any "other" interpretation is WP:OR. I have established that people, including reliable third-party sources, did indeed refer to the championship as the "TNA Heavyweight Title" BEFORE May 2007. So, your response, is to say "this conversation is done". Nice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 05:33, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

More fun:

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/columns/misc/trisxavier01.html

Holy crap it's from 2005.

or:

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/TV_Reports_9/article_9880.shtml

YES, I DID say that the Torch was Unreliable. But, be that as it may, in SEPTEMBER 2004m the Torch is refusing to the "TNA Title", with no mention of "NWA" in sight. I'm sure, further looking will go all the way back to mid-2002 if someone has the patience/time. Put that in your pipe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 09:38, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

...

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/columns/misc/joel09.html

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2003/10/19/230684.html

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/255820-revolution-of-wrestling-the-impact-of-the-phenomenal-one-aj-styles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 12:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

http://www.prowrestlingondemand.com/2011/06/tna-wrestling-doomsday-best-of-abyss.html

http://www.pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/TNA_News_1/article_29034.shtml

http://rawworldofwrestling.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/wrestling-school/

(Can-Am)

http://www.wrestling-caricatures.com/id168.html

(11/04/05)

http://www.dory-funk.com/main.html

(the consensus best...)

more to come.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 09:39, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

some sources

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/columns/misc/loganpiekema01.html

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/06/26/1105525.html

(scroll down to second paragraph from the bottom)

...if I had more time there would be tons more. Note those are both from 2005. The Reliability of the first one MAY be questioned, but not the second. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 09:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

and...

http://www.411mania.com/MMA/columns/29863

(Steve Murray)

http://www.pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/PPV_Reports_5/article_35493.shtml

(post-match)

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2011/0130/535972/christian-cage/

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/208415-former-tna-world-champion-works-raw-wwetoday--more

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/3155093/Smackdown-goes-live-in-UK.html

etc. etc. etc.

Put that in your pipe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 14:24, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

History

The TNA Title was created in May 2007 due the NWA pulling the NWA Title. As such, even though TNA did and probably still does recognize the NWA reigns as TNA reigns, we don't due to the title not existing then. We have references from WrestleView, Slam Sports, PW Torch, etc that can cover each of those reigns as NWA Title reigns. If needed we can establish TNA's view at the time, by using TNA sources. We currently still use TNA as a source, but only when it isn't contradicted by itself or by other sources, such as its revisionist history. Its verifiable that Shamrock was the first NWA World Heavyweight Champion in TNA and that it was the "heavyweight title" of TNA. The last NWA Champion in TNA was Cage, while the first TNA Champion in was Angle. That is the correct history of the title and each and everyone of these points can be sourced. However, every NWA reign can not be third party sourced as TNA reigns. The only source that can is the contradictory TNA history. This is the issue, the NWA Title was in TNA and as such it changed hands making each and every reign. We do not change history because a company wants to. Its like WWE trying to say Chris Benoit never existed, we don't delete every match, etc of his because WWE did. We go by what has happened. Thats the point of an encyclopedia.--WillC 23:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

No sources for any of that. And yet Wikipedia recognized the Flair-Race('84) and Flair-Fujinami ('91) NWA title switches as official because there are modern revisionist sources stating they happened. I will bet that you can't find contempary sources to back those up! I have listed third=party sources(including Slam! Wrestling) calling it the "TNA World Title". Thus were simply ignored as they show that WillC's point about "no one called it the TNA Title before May 2007" is, quite simply, a lie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 05:31, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

"No sources for any of that." It's all sourced, buddy. And all you did was find a couple of columnists making off-hand comments about the title, referring it as a TNA title. While the guy writing the Slam! Wrestling article about Christian did refer to the title as the "TNA heavyweight title" in a list of quick results from various promotions, the site's report for the event correctly calls the belt by its real name: [1]. The rest of your "sources" are just sad and show the weakness of your pointless argument.TheFBH (talk) 12:03, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, more personal insults. And why should one Slam! Wrestling source be "Reliable" while another is dismissed out of hand? Why should some basement dwelling fanboy sites be "Reliable" while columnists for respected wrestling news sites be "sad"? Kudos for also completely ignoring my other points too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 13:39, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

What is this article called? Thats right List of TNA World Heavyweight Champions. This is not about the NWA's views. Bring that up there. Meanwhile we are gonna stay on subject, the TNA Title. The issue is, you aren't listening. We aren't saying Slam is not reliable, we are showing what they mean, while you are having selective viewing. Its a contradiction to call it two different things, so we go by the actual report of the event, not the footnote of the event. You can talk about basement dwelling fanboy sites, but it makes no difference, those are the sites we go on because if you haven't figured it out every article you've read on here about wrestling is written by fanboys, it makes no difference. The articles are still reviewed and perfected by editors who have no interest in wrestling. This is the internet, of course we go by wrestling sites. All wrestling fans are fanboys, thats the point. It doesn't discredit our argument that the title didn't exist until May 2007. You can't even disprove it didn't exist until May 2007.--WillC 15:45, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh also if you want sources, check TNA World Heavyweight Championship. Since I wrote it 2 years ago, I'm sure every source you need is right in there.--WillC 15:54, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

More arrogance(Since I wrote it...) and more ignoring the point. You stated that there are no sources prior to May 2007 mentioning a "TNA World Heavyweight Title"(or similar). There are. You then resort to explaining what someone you never met "really meant" when he wrote an article 6 years ago! How egotistical can one person be? As far as the "fanboy" comments, it is YOU who is not listening. Yes, all wrestling sites are run/maintained by wrestling fans. But there is a HUGE difference between sites run by companies like WWE, TNA, ROH, and sites like Slam! Wrestling and 411wrestling on one hand......and then the www.johncenaissokewl420.com type sites that you use as "Reliable Sources" on the other hand. I could have found THOUSANDS more sites listing the "TNA World Title" before May 2007, yet only stuck with those respected websites. I'm sure if I, or others, search around more I/we will find loads more Reliable Sources in this vain. But then, you would explain what wrestling experts "really meant", and go on about how you created this article with a consensus of one and your word is final. I have presented a case that at the very least debunks your claims about "no one talking about a TNA World Title" before May 2007, and used the NWA as a comparison. Again, if the NWA's bullshit revisionism is treated as FACT because there are present-day websites that espouse that view, why is TNA's actual history rejected because some fanboy(yes) sites state otherwise? Because WillC says so, that's why! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 09:17, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

All I have to state to disprove your entire argument is it never existed before May 2007. You have to yet to prove the title was created before May 2007. They can't be talking about the TNA Title as it didn't exist until 2007. Use some Common Sense for once. You can't seem to get that through your head. It was created in May 2007 no matter how much TNA says the first champion was Shamrock. TNA even says the title began in May 2007. Use some common sense, the title began in May 2007, your argument fails. You can claim all you want about things that have nothing to do with the subject, it won't change things.--WillC 16:23, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

So, there you have it. Wikipedia does not require WP:RS (such as the Slam! wrestling link I cited). All Wikipedia needs is for WillC to state something! And again check WP:V, or will you treat that the way you treated the RELIABLE links that people(not just me) have listed? As far as "has nothing to do with the subject", WTF?! How does citing Reliable Sources about the TNA World Heavyweight Title, have "nothing to do with the subject" when the subject is a "List of TNA World Heavyweight Champions"? Are you really THAT far gone? Why don't you go and compile a "List of ***** matches" or the like, and people can tidy this article up without your stubborn interference? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Again you pay no attention. You keep mentioning the NWA's views. This has nothing to do with the NWA's views. You have listed no reliable source that changes that the TNA Title was created in May 2007. All you have shown is one little source that say "TNA heavyweight title", which in of itself isn't consistent as everyone writes titles like "TNA Heavyweight Title" and you completely ignored the results of the event in question. Here is another source that contradicts your view, I was TNA Champ." (NWA Champ, actually.) . Common sense is also a policy here on wikipedia. Thats why I gave you the link. All the sources to back up mine and FBH's arguments are in the article. I mention writing the articles since I did write them, so I know the information regrading the history. You take it as I'm trying to control everything. All you've done is whine that you can't back up your argument. One source against 30 or 40. You need to read the policies you are listing.--WillC 20:22, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

So a "keller's take" is more Reliable than TNA's own website? And the guy reports that "TNA World Champion" was used, but then he says NWA actually? And since when is the fucking Torch "Reliable"?

The lack of reply would seem to indicate hat he has acknowledged the flaw in his argument. But more RS are still neede to correct this article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 08:16, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

No the lack of reply is because of your complete nonsense view on history. This discussion has gone on long enough. You've yet to establish your view as credible. You've shown one source. You got 30 or 40 reigns to source, still yet to do that.--WillC 14:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Er, no. I have given multiple Reliable Sources, whereas you have a collection of dead links and fanboy websites, where the people have difficulty constructing simple sentences. I have the same (correct) viewpoint as TNA themselves. The one with all the Reliable Links. Your entire argument is that "I made the article, therefore I want it to stay this way". That's hardly appropriate for an encyclopedia. Put that in your pipe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 07:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

We've stated time and time again our points, none of which you've disproven. We've shown how your points are flawed. So I'm going to leave one source of many, I want you to disprove what it says. Its from a reliable source, one you've also used. Winner Via Pinfall and STILL NWA Heavyweight Champion - "The Instant Classic" Christian Cage.--WillC 08:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. Here's another link

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2006/03/19/pf-1495570.html

So, I have multiple links from Slam Wrestling. And that last one is from a respected writer for the Ottawa Sun. So, what makes YOUR SlamWrestling links better than mine? I'll tell you what...NOTHING. We then get my links FROM TNA'S OWN WEBSITE, from Ken Shamrock's site, from respected online sites etc.......versus your dead links and fanboy sites, and people reporting that STYLES ACTUALLY SAID TNA ON A PPV, but then "correcting" it. Poorly. Put that in your pipe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 09:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, lets see another case where if it backs your argument then it works. You take the Keller's report and claim it is their view. Then you get another editor from Slam who says their view once again and its good because it seemingly helps you. I see the only thing you will believe is TNA anymore. So here we go, I'm going to use TNA as a source and source the actual event: TNA Home Video andNavarre Corporation (2007-02-11). "Against All Odds 2007". TNA Against All Odds. In Demand. {{cite episode}}: Unknown parameter |serieslink= ignored (|series-link= suggested) (help) You didn't disprove my source, instead you just ignored it. As for your link, its easy to discredit by actually reading the article. It says "TNA heavyweight strap", that is not the title. That is the heavyweight title belt in TNA. Anyone with common sense would easily see that the writer is referring to the heavyweight belt in TNA, not calling the title the TNA Heavyweight Championship. We've explained how the TNA sources don't count as its revisionist, we are trying to show what actually happened in history, lets see you show us that not what is said now. Shamrock I'll give you, but that is one small army. Majority wins here. As for dead links, I don't see any. And fanboy sites you speak of, while you have used PWTorch once, Online World of Wrestling which is extremely a fanboy site and 411Mania which is also a fanboy site, borderline dirtsheet that we don't even use here. However, I do believe it would be easy to find sources from each backing our arguments over your's. So I went ahead and did so: AJ Styles defeated Jeff Jarrett to capture the NWA World Heavyweight title! and NEW NWA CHAMPION AJ Styles. Same event, same match, two different sources, used by your reliable sources. There is three discredit them and show they are wrong, TNA, Online world of wrestling, and 411Mania. You also have that other Slam ref, as well as the old TNA sources shown by me that TNA changed their view, etc. Are you still going to argue this? As everything before you shows you different, and your entire argument is held on TNA's revisionist view, Sharmrock's lone comment, and open view statements by writer or two. You are trying to change several articles passed on very few facts, compared to upwards of 50 sources that can be represented easily. Just end this, it isn't going anywhere. This isn't because I made it or want it to stay the same way. Its because its the truth, its whats factual, its the whole point articles are wrote, etc.--WillC 12:08, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, this has become "my source is better than your source". I have shown multiple Sources from BEFORE May 2007 calling it the "TNA Title" or some variation. And, NO, the only "common sense" way of interpreting that is that it is indeed the TNA Title, not "the title in TNA". If it wasn't the "TNA Title", they wouldn't CALL it the "TNA Title". THAT is common sense. So, we new have various sites (Slam, Torch, onlineworldofwrestling etc.) calling it by different names. What makes your sources more reliable than mine? In fact, what makes mine more reliable than yours? And your mythical "consensus" is crap. We thus have to go to TNA themselves who state that Shamrock was the first TNA Champion, and make reference to Jarrett as a 6-time TNA Champion, Styles as a 4-time TNA Champion etc. And personal sites(like Shamrock's) calling them TNA Champion. All the other sources(Slam etc.) back that up. Put that in your pipe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 12:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

You do know everytime you say "Put that in your pipe" you are breaking WP:Civil, but since you seem to know oh so much about how things should be I'd assume you'd know that by now. And for this you can be blocked considering you've done it several times. However, here is the case, as there are more sources covering the NWA Title history and showing TNA's title history is flawed. Case in point being the old TNA history refs contradicting the view they recognize NWA Champs as being only TNA. As we must be able to verify that claim due to Wikipedia:Verifiability. The only claim able to be proven completely is they were two different titles, as there are sources covering every single World Heavyweight Championship reign in TNA being either TNA or NWA, however there are not sources able to cover every single title win in TNA as just TNA World Heavyweight Championship reigns one by one. So, case in point is the articles stay the same until you can provide more information. Thats how it is in a consensus, you must prove things for the information to be changed in order to reach an agreement.--WillC 14:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

You do know that you didn't actually answer what I asked? Your basic argument is "the page is this way now, so it must stay that way, despite your Reliable Sources because I says so". You have also entered the world of WP:OR by stating that when a source from say 2004 talks about the "TNA Title" that 'they really meant....'!!! How would you know? If they said "TNA Title" in 2004, it can only mean ONE THING. As far as sources for every title change, well yes and no. First, the web is a HUGE place, and it will take time. Second, there may be sources that DID exist, but the sites themselves no longer exist(dating back to 2002). Next, can you find WP:RS dating from the time of each ECW change or WWE change or WCW change? Of course not! We go by modern sources, that establish what DID happen, as well as the actual promotion's own official history! That is why bs title changes like the Flair-Fujinami 1991 "switches" are recognized! TNA's OWN SITE is the official history, and multiple sources point to people being former champions, the title being referred to as the "TNA Title" LONG before 2007, and specific(though MAYBE not all) title changes from June 2002 onwards. Your "consensus" is just your own arrogance and stubbornness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.135.172.84 (talk) 15:26, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

A separate page for a complete TNA title history?

This page is for the TNA World Heavyweight Champions. There's no arguing that. It gives the total history of the belt. Nothing should happen to this page. But with regard to TNA's history, should there be an alternate page detailing the combined history of World Heavyweight Champions in TNA? A page for both the Singles and Tag Teams were made years ago, here is an example of what it would look like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Wrestlinglover/List_of_World_Heavyweight_Champions_in_TNA

I think this page would be a useful look into TNA's history, and provide a complete look at TNA's belt history since its inception. It can exist along with this page with no issue in my mind. What do others think about it though? I would like to move forward with this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.250.16 (talk) 08:12, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

A separate would be a nice thing to have. WrestlingLegendAS (talk) 23:48, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

MMM, I don't think so. NWA and TNA are two separated titles. Also, TNA says Kurt Angle is the first TNA World Champion. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 00:09, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Josh Barnett

I guess Josh Barnett should be recognized as champion, he defeated Lashley, but the match was restarted and Lashley became a 5 time champion. Technically, since Lashley was pinned, in witness of the referee and Barnett had the title handed to him, by the referee, his however many minutes of fame and reign should be recognized.... Do not have any more information yet.... This was a taped episode not aired.... Heru101 (talk) 01:41, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

If the match was restarted, that means that the previous result is void, and Barnett was never champion. No, we don't list him. oknazevad (talk) 01:48, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

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Should we start including NWA Champions?

After last night's AEW Rampage, Impact Wrestling sent out a media advisory (see here: https://twitter.com/TheGaryCassidy/status/1426465608024133638/photo/1) stating Christian Cage was previously a "two-time IMPACT World Heavyweight Champion, first claiming the title in early 2006 at the Against All Odds pay-per-view. Then, at Final Resolution in January 2007, he defeated Abyss and Sting in a three-way elimination match to reclaim the championship." Does this lend credence to the claim Impact now recoginizes the NWA champions from the 2002-2007 period as Impact champions? Should we start including them in this article now? Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 20:30, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

No. Still a separate title. An imprecisely worded press release is not a valid reason to change everything. oknazevad (talk) 22:28, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm personally leaning toward recognition per the press release but I see your point - it does seem the press release may use the phrase "IMPACT World Heavyweight Champion" to avoid having to say "NWA World Heavyweight Champion". We should probably wait to this week's episode of Impact to see if they refer to Cage as a "3 time Impact World Champ" before we change anything in the article. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 22:51, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Also the two championships being separate wouldn't matter if Impact begins recognizing the NWA champs as Impact champs. RevPro recognizes former IPW:UK Champions as former British Heavyweight Champions despite the championships being separate, which the British Heavyweight Championship article shows. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 22:51, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Given the kayfabe nature of titles, the length of each individual reign and the combined reigns should list either both dates or just the date the match was aired.

Dates Won vs Dates Aired

Given the kayfabe nature of titles, the length of each individual reign and the combined reigns should list either both dates or just the date the match was aired. 2601:346:C201:60C0:F822:F115:6A8:2C7 (talk) 02:49, 22 January 2022 (UTC)