Talk:List of Black Sabbath and Heaven & Hell members

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The stuff below is completely unintelligible, but I can only imagine you're talking about the new Dio Years tracks. These are Sabbath songs, not "Heaven & Hell" songs, and the band members themselves have referred to them as such. To date, there are no original "Heaven & Hell" songs. As of now, the band (of the original 4 members) is technically "on hiatus" and claims to be planning to release a project within the next year, and Dio and Appice are not "in" Black Sabbath at the moment. HOWEVER, we'll have to watch what happens over the next year or so, as certain circumstances could retroactively render this period to become "Black Sabbath" (i.e. Ozzy and Bill leave the band for good and the current incarnation starts touring as Sabbath, etc.). Prezuiwf 19:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I know it's a late reply to you, but here it is: I made that messy, pointless speech ranting about the new Dio Years tracks. My point at the time (though I'm sick of losing arguments about technical things so won't chase it up) was that they released music as Black Sabbath together. Dio/Butler/Iommi/Appice went into the studio to make some Black Sabbath music in 2006 and released it in 2007. So they should be listed as session musicians at that time. (The Elfoid (talk) 03:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC))

Anyone willing to make a chart? It'd be much easier to read. I would, but I don't know how. The top bars would be Vocalist, Guitarist, Bassist, Drummer. The left would be the years. -Winter123 (talk) 03:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The original table was deleted, now restored

The current table format is the standard member history format used for many bands as a support article for the main band articles. It does not require any additional material such as "by year" or "by instrument" text. This is just a duplication of the data already contained in the table and is useless. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 22:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks... I was just about to type the same thing. Consensus is to go with the standard table and not include any other superfluity. Libs (talk) 22:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Interest in a chart? ; Adam Wakeman credit

Two issues: 1.) I saw someone cite interest in a chart. I will create one if people really are interested. Those are fun, and I find them much more helpful that the text list style currently employed on the page.

2.) I've re-added Adam Wakeman's credit as keyboardist on the 2004-era Black Sabbath tours. Please do not delete it, as he is a legitimate member in the same manner as Nicholls (ie, if Nicholls receives a credit for his role as keyboardist, Wakeman should receive the same, as he fulfills the same function.) I've added a citation. Wakeman's tours were proper Sabbath tours (ie, with Osbourne and Ward,) and do not relate to the Heaven and Hell controversy. While we're on the subject, I'll weigh in with my opinion that Heaven and Hell should be left to separate from Sabbath, and the newly recorded songs should not be consider Sabbath recordings, in keeping with Iommi's wishes. Colinclarksmith (talk) 22:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with comparing Adam Wakeman with Geoff Nichols. GN was an offical member during the Seventh Star era, listed as a band member on the album, appearing on-stage for the tour, and was in all promotional photographs. If Adam is included (I don't believe he should) you would have to include his father Rick, Mike Bordin, Rob Halford, and even Ice-T. BTW I also disagree with including Jo Burt and Dave Donato on this list. J04n (talk) 02:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I've decided I agree with you on the A. Wakeman/Nichols issue, as Nichols was indeed an on-stage, full-status member during the Seventh Star sessions, although I think that Adam Wakeman has a more significant relationship with the band than, say, Ice-T. But that's neither here nor there - I agree that Adam Wakeman is best excluded from the list. No opinion on Dave Donato, but wasn't Jo Burt's bass work used on the Eternal Idol? I can't remember at the moment. Colinclarksmith (talk) 05:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I was using Ice T to emphasize my point. But your mention of the bass player for Eternal Idol brings up a good point. It was actually Bob Daisley on bass, but Dave Spitz received the credit. Should Bob Daisley be "on the list" after serving esentialy as a session musician...I say no, but now this list has no bassist for Eternal Idol. Very tricky. I'm going to delete Adam Wakeman. J04n (talk) 11:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Tricky indeed. Adam Wakeman deletion sounds fair. Colinclarksmith (talk) 19:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

David Donato

Should DD be on this list? I vote no, if no one disagess I will delete him. J04n (talk) 11:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Jo Burt

Does JB belong on this list? I vote no, if no one disagess I will delete him. J04n (talk) 11:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

why did we have to change the format

it worked just fine forever, and now it needs to be changed? add it on to the page, i like being able to scroll down and see what the lineup was completely lame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.74.151 (talk) 02:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Bev Bevan

I removed Born Again from Bev Bevan's release contributions, he performed on the tour but not on the album. Bill Ward was the drummer for Born Again. J04n (talk) 02:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Chart

I put the chart back, what do people think? J04n (talk) 02:46, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I added a third column with "contributions" if someone can figure out how to move the "See also" Heavan and Hell to UNDER the table please do, I give up on that. Please feel free to improve the table. J04n (talk) 01:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Chart is great! I personally greatly prefer that type of chart (extended lists chronologically listing lineups) for band member Wikipedia articles, although I'm not sure whether or not I'm in the majority. I think the formatting could use a few small touch-ups, including getting that damn "see also" at the bottom where it belongs, which I will try my hand at sometime soon. Cheers! Colinclarksmith (talk) 19:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I tweeked it a bit and was able to move the "see also" to the bottom. J04n (talk) 04:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I reformatted the chart a bit, expanding it to 100% of the article size (which looks better on my dinosaur of a PC, hopefully the same is true for other computers and browsers), gave everyone bold typeface etc., and also made a few small additions, including the Heaven & Hell rehersal lineup (with Nicholls on bass), and the two occasions when Rob Halford performed with the band. These are all dubious "lineups" and can be disputed, I realize, but I favor their inclusion while being open to differing opinions. Colinclarksmith (talk) 19:59, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I like alot of what you did but I have to say thay I don't like the 100% table size. It leaves a big gap between the "linups through the years" subheading and the actual table. I'm also not sure why you went with the small font for the non-album contributions. J04n (talk) 05:50, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I haven't checked out the table on a non-dinosaur computer (such as the one I use) yet. If you think standard browsers (whatever they are these days) would be better suited to a differently sized chart, feel free to do so - although a few band member charts that I like that are full-sized include the List of Red Hot Chili Peppers band members and List of L.A. Guns band members charts, which I've used as references, as well as the List of SNFU band members and List of Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds band members charts which I myself have made. As for the small font, I like it for differentiating the 'significant' (ie, album) contributions and the 'minor' (ie, non-album) contributions lineups have made. I'm not married to that either, so change it if you like. Colinclarksmith (talk) 22:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The difference between this and the Chili Pepper list is that this one has the band information box, without the box on the right there isn't the gap I mentioned. The thing about the Chi Pepper box that I like though is that each line-up is referenced. That may be something worth tacklingJ04n (talk) 02:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I like that about the Chili Pepper page too. That sounds like a good project for a rainy day. Colinclarksmith (talk) 17:45, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

All old information deleted?

Well that's fucked up. I spent ages doing all that, it is the common format of band member lists now, plus there was no consensus reached or even attempted. So much for Wikipedia being a fucking democracy.

If the shitty line-up table means so much, why not ADD it to the previous info, as opposed to just using it INSTEAD of it. Tits. Andre666 (talk) 09:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way. On 11/16/08 it was brought up on this discussion page to switch to a chart and there were no dissenting comments. I'm fairly new to this but isn't there a voting process to settle these issues. Your information can be regained by undoing. J04n (talk) 13:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm also sorry to hear that, and sorry that you feel that your time was wasted (that's a terrible feeling!) The information is not deleted, it resides in the article's history section and can easily be resurrected by locating previous edits. I don't believe there is a "standard" for band member history articles, merely different formats that suit different tastes. The current table instituted by J04n and touched up by me happens to be the format that I prefer. Others disagree. Also, Wikipedia is not a democracy in the manner that you suggest, but a non-voting consensus derived directly from the actions of the contributors. Your opinion can be voiced as easily as mine, and the viewing/editing/contributing community can react to your contributions as they see fit. So I encourage you to respond with your own formatting decisions. Colinclarksmith (talk) 22:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Timline

Added a graphical timeline, not 100% complete but pretty close. Feel free to improve on it. J04n(talk page) 03:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I notice someone has filled in the formerly blank gap between 2006-2011 on the timeline. Black Sabbath was inactive during that period; should it not remain empty? If anything were to be filled in there, surely it would be the Dio/Appice/Butler/Iommi lineup that was touring under the name heaven and hell?--ERAGON (talk) 16:15, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Yeah....it unquestionably should be blank. I have reverted it. Woknam66 ^talk _{James Bond} 22:58, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be a missing vertical black line (studio album) in 1975 for the album "Sabotage", right? (I'm not a Black Sabbath expert, so I'm not 100% sure if there should be a black line there) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.60.193.243 (talk) 17:44, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Alternate table

Here's an alternate version of the members table which may or may not be more readable than the one you have already. Perhaps you could discuss it amongst yourselves as to whether you feel it could be used. I think I've simply transposed the information that was currently present, so I cannot vouch for its accuracy. One anomaly seems to be with Geoff Nicholls, his role as a studio and off-stage live keyboardist is consistent, but his status seems to be perceived differently during his tenure with the band. — Drwhawkfan (talk) 14:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it looks superior to the table now in place, nice work. Feel free to change it over (if others don't like it, it can always be changed back), but I would still leave the graph unless people think it is redundant. J04n(talk page) 14:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've moved the alternate table over onto the main page seeing as no-one has raised any objections. — Drwhawkfan (talk) 13:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

there was nothing wrong with how it was originally listed, someone idiot decided it needs to be different but it made it easy to see what the lineup was at a specific time and what albums they put out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.100.57.225 (talk) 06:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

geoff Nicholls

Only at some points in the band's career was Geoff Nicholls credited as a full member of the band. He should only be listed for these periods. (The Elfoid (talk) 16:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC))

Adam Wakeman

"Adam Wakeman Active: 2004–present Instruments: keyboards Release contributions: none " This is taken from the list of all black sabbath members; why isn't he credited as an actual member in the main page? I added him and it got deleted... is he not member any more (I dont know that much about this band, just asking).

Late response, but its because he is only a touring member. There are plenty of musicians who come in for concerts and so forth, but are not full members of said bands. In this case, Adam Wakeman is one such musician. --ERAGON (talk) 01:13, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Laurence Cottle

The Headless Cross article says Cottle was a session musician and not a full member; the article Laurence Cottle doesn't even mention Sabbath. Can somebody who knows more about the band than me either move Cottle to the guests list or fix the 2 articles I mentioned? --kingboyk (talk) 12:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Checked Joe Siegler's site. (Siegler works for Tony Iommi). He states that Cottle was never intended to be involved in the tour, indeed they left him out of the publicity photos for that reason. He should really be on the guest list.--ERAGON (talk) 00:30, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Was Ozzy Fired or Did He Quit?

This article says that Ozzy was fired from the band. The main article says he quit: Black Sabbath. Anyone know which is correct? 67.80.97.86 (talk) 20:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Both, actually. He quit in 1978, and then rejoined midway through the recording of Never Say Die. Then, in 1979 he got so fried he could not tell the difference between AM and PM and missed a concert; Iommi fired him for it. The details are written in his book.--ERAGON (talk) 03:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Deep Purple as associated act?

They have had two full time common musicians; Glenn Hughes and Ian Gillian. Don Airey was also in Deep Purple but only as a sessional musician for sabbath. Should they be included?--ERAGON (talk) 22:10, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Bob Daisley

I didn't think he was an actual member; being the equivalent of what Laurence Cottle later became: a session guy. Wouldn't Bob be under session musician section if that were the case?

Also, what was up with Dave Spitz, the other bassist at around that time? Wasn't he the "official" bassist at the time? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.57.211 (talk) 05:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The Laurence Cottle situation is surprisingly complicated, with him claiming membership and the band denying it. Bootlegged recordings do exist, but he worked with them in the period preceding the release of 'Seventh Star'. That album was ultimately released as 'Black Sabbath, featuring Tony Iommi' due to record label pressure, but prior to that Iommi had been attempting to release it as the first album of a solo career. Arguably, Black Sabbath did not exist for a period of about six months before that record label ruling, during which Cottle's entire tenure with them took place. There is no real consensus on that one. --ERAGON (talk) 09:48, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Inclusion more info of Heaven & Hell and New timeline proposition

I propose a change to the timeline. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, but I just want to throw the idea out there. Since Heaven & Hell was touring in the absence of a true Black Sabbath in support of Black Sabbath albums, and performing primarily Black Sabbath songs, with 4 prior members of Black Sabbath, they go quite unmentioned on this page. I propose the following timeline, as it still shows the difference between the two bands, yet shows how they intertwine. (If Sabbath were active during that time, this wouldn't work) I think this shows everything very nicely. Could still use some tweaking? please comment. — DLManiac (talk) 23:57, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Timeline

Looks good to me.--ERAGON (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

I would support including more information on Heaven and Hell, though I think adding them to the timeline chart makes it more confusing. I am especially against adding "The Dio Years" as a studio album on the Black Sabbath chart. To begin with, a compilation album with only a few new songs isn't regarded as a studio album; also, it is not a Black Sabbath album, according to... well... Wikipedia (I mean, consensus of millions of editors, blah-blah...) ...it's not in the Black Sabbath discography article. We could add some text above the timeline explaining that this doesn't include Heaven & Hell. OrlinKolev (talk) 23:22, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Inclusion of Heaven & Hell period (2006-2010)

Hi there, I've noticed a rather slow edit war going on over whether or not the Heaven & Hell period should be included in this page. The official stance of the band was:

Ronnie James Dio: "It doesn’t much matter what we call it, people will call it what it is – Black Sabbath with Dio"[1] Tony Iommi: "We intentionally did that. All the material we’re playing onstage, it’s none of the old stuff, it’s none of the Ozzy period. It’s all Dio stuff. So by calling ourselves Heaven and Hell, it’s revisiting that period. If we’d have gone out as Black Sabbath, people’d have been expecting to hear “Iron Man” and “War Pigs” and all that -- which is great, but we just decided to call ourselves something different."[2]

The only similarity on other articles that comes to mind is the band yes, which broke up, had three of the members form a new band named Cinema which toured and eventually changed its name to Yes, once again. The article for the list of Yes members includes the 'Cinema' period of the band's history.

The official site for the band only really discusses the period with Ozzy Osbourne in any detail, but Black-Sabbath.com's timeline covers the heaven and hell era as though it is simply part of the main line. While not from the band's mouth, the site is run by Joe Siegler, who also manages Cozy Powell's official website. I would be in favour of reinstating the timeline as it was above, perhaps with a hidden note to prevent editors unfamiliar with the talk page from removing it. --ERAGON (talk) 17:37, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

There's a few things which make this era of the band complicated. During the Heaven & Hell years, Black Sabbath was officially a different, existing band. If I remember, when H&H was announced in late 2006, Ozzy and Bill Ward put out official statements saying Black Sabbath was still a band and would be back on the road in 2008. Iommi and Butler made it clear in interviews that the original four guys were all still in Sabbath, Sabbath hadn't split up, they were just on a hiatus while the two of them worked with H&H - so they were two bands existing in parallel. In real terms of course, H&H was Black Sabbath under a different name for that time period. Personally, I think that while info on H&H is worth including here, we can't claim it was Black Sabbath. Look at bands such as Venom Inc. (who comprise a former Venom line-up), no one claims they're Venom, and that's a similar situation.

On the other hand, and I am surprised fewer people have noted this in discussion, the three new songs recorded in late 2006 and released in 2007 on Black Sabbath: The Dio Years, were recorded by Dio, Iommi, Butler and Appice under the name BLACK SABBATH. Look at the artwork for the The Devil Cried single - that's a Black Sabbath song, not a Heaven & Hell song, even if the supporting tour was by Heaven & Hell. The Heaven & Hell guys also mixed and mastered live albums like the Hammersmith one that was released in 2007 under the Sabbath name, but usually membership of a band requires more than that (Slash worked on Guns N' Roses' live album in 2009, and he definitely was not in GN'R at that point, for instance). (Chill (talk) 14:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC))

The timeline did at one point include the Dio Years thing, but it seems to have been removed by someone. It should definitely be put back.--ERAGON (talk) 13:36, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the guy who recently overhauled this list. My two cents are as follows – the Heaven & Hell 2006 to 2010 era is very simple, with only select band members. I would be happy to put another section below the members called "Heaven and Hell", where there is a brief paragraph detailing the group and a small table showing who was in it – I am very happy to implement this. I will write a draft at some point to show you what I mean. Andre666 (talk) 15:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I think we should be aiming for something closer to the one above, where the Heaven & Hell era is marked as such and fills the otherwise blank space in the grid. Even more confusing, one of the Heaven & Hell albums was marked '30 years of Heaven & Hell', referring to the entirety of Dio's work with them- as though the Dio-era Sabbath albums too were published under the moniker.

Sorry, I edited before looking at the talk page. Right now it's consistent with the Discography section of the Black Sabbath article, I strongly believe whatever "studio albums" are marked here must be included there as well. OrlinKolev (talk) 23:01, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

At the very least, there should be no Ozzy-led lineup in that 2006-2011 period. After all, their return in 2011 was billed as a reunion- which wouldn't make sense, if the band was together prior to that announcement with the exact same lineup. To my knowledge, the last time Ozzy appeared with them was for the Hall of Fame entry on March 13, 2006, with the band coming back together in August 2011 for rehearsals ahead of the reunion announcement. Hiatuses like that tend to be represented with blank periods on the charts, for other bands. List_of_Rainbow_band_members--ERAGON (talk) 18:20, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I've changed the timeline back to how it was before. Is everyone cool with that now? Andre666 (talk) 08:46, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Looks good to me. The only changes I made was to draw in faintly the 2009 Devil you Know album on the Heaven and Hell bit, and extended the Black Sabbath period before it to 13/03/2006, their last appearance as such beforehand.--ERAGON (talk) 10:45, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

The issue of Heaven & Hell is now being discussed here. Join the conversation. Charles Essie (talk) 16:23, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Timeline glitched

Band timeline image appears to be broken. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to fix it? Sk8r2000 (talk) 13:33, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Recording timeline section suggestion

Why, in the recording timeline section, not rotate of 90 degrees the name of the albums to make it fit on the page (and optionally put the name in the right rotation in a footnote)? So the page can fit in the screen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.58.204.155 (talk) 17:19, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Can Somebody Fix The Timeline?

The time line's bunked. I'm not familiar enough with all the members to update it. I know The Earth is integral to Black Sabbath, as is The Dawn Of Recorded Time (or from whence Black Sabbath emerged...or was the Led Zeppelin...I don't remember). I just don't know who all these other folks are and how and when they played. Liberty5651 (talk) 01:01, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Iommi as a continuous member

Should the Timeline and Lineups consider the period from September – November 1968 when Iommi left Earth to join Jethro Tull? It was less than three months, but those sections take into account other brief periods, like the March – April 1984 with Ron Keel as vocalist. Besteirense (talk) 19:26, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Jeff Fenholt/Gordon Copley/Bob Daisley

Just a couple of questions about the page 1. Jeff Fenholt is listed as a full member of Sabbath while Gordon Copley is listed as a session musician. Given that they both worked with the band at the same time and neither of them progressed beyond the Seventh Star demo stage, should they both be listed as session musicians? Even Iommi has stated that Fenholt "tried out" for Sabbath but they never made him a formal offer to join. 2. Bob Daisley has stated himself that he turned down an offer to join Sabbath as an official member during the Eternal Idol sessions, meaning that during the time he worked with them it was as a session player, but this page lists him as a full member. I would say if Laurence Cottle is listed as session musician on Headless Cross, then Daisley should be for Eternal Idol. Tbf62 (talk) 17:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)