Talk:Philippine Hokkien

Found some interesting sources for this page on its future development

@Justinrleung and MarkH21: I've managed to dig up some interesting sources for this topic, some of them I couldn't find an online copy that we can easily view but here are some of those that I have found with an available online pdf web copy regarding this language's presence in the Philippines and also other interesting reads with mention about the language and/or the Chinese Filipino people or political or linguistic region's history and background. Some of these documents also list some other interesting references of their own at the back that one may also try and look for if there's available copies of that online. I think this old first one, might be able to cover back those words, expressions, that got taken out, though it's working on a vocab set from centuries ago, which might have slightly changed today or some of the words might not be too commonly heard anymore (like those spanish-derived religious catholic words which I'm not sure if people still say though I'm not from a catholic family). At least, the first 3 below deals with the linguistics of the variety throughout the centuries, the others thereafter, might just indirectly talk about it, which you may do the Ctrl+F kind of browsing.

1. "The Manila Incunabula and Early Hokkien Studies" (1745s?)

   By: P. Van Der Loon

   http://www2.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/file/1745sWSSKnQ.pdf

2. "The Language of the Sangleys: A Chinese Vernacular in Missionary Sources of the Seventeenth Century" (1969)

   By: Henning Klöter

   https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=T8NdEa7NckUC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

3. "Language contact in the Philippines: The history and ecology from a Chinese Filipino perspective" (2017)

   By: Wilkinson Daniel Wong Gonzales

   https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED593525.pdf

4. "THE MANILA CHINESE: COMMUNITY, TRADE AND EMPIRE, C. 1570 – C. 1770" (2014)

   By: Joshua Eng Sin Kueh, M.A.

   https://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/712443/Kueh_georgetown_0076D_12743.pdf;sequence=1

5. Spain, China, and Japan in Manila, 1571-1644" (2015)

   By: Birgit M. Tremml-Werner

   https://oapen.org/download?type=document&docid=628136

6. "Communication Challenges in the China Seas: A Survey of Early Modern ‘Manila Linguists’"

   By: Birgit M. Tremml-Werner

   https://www.hist.uzh.ch/dam/jcr:74229cfa-1a16-4747-a0a4-366f303c55df/BTW_Comm_challenges.pdf

7. "Navigating Cultures, Forming Identities" (2013)

   By: Teresita Ang See & Carmelea Ang See

   https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carmelea_See/publication/270528779_Navigating_Cultures_Forming_Identities/links/5b3afe30a6fdcc8506ea5fe3/Navigating-Cultures-Forming-Identities.pdf

8. "The massacre of 1603: Chinese perception of the Spaniards in the Philippines" (1998)

   By: José Eugenio Borao

   http://homepage.ntu.edu.tw/~borao/2Profesores/massacre.pdf

--Mlgc1998 (talk) 22:51, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Just a quick initial response, that first source is really old! Both the first and second source, if used, should be introduced with the appropriate context that those are from the 1740s and 1960s. I haven't looked in the articles yet, but they could be interesting. @Mlgc1998: By the way, the percentages from your cemetery study add up to more than 100%, so I've removed them until that is sorted out. — MarkH21 (talk) 23:00, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the list. I've also found some of those in my searches. The second source argues that there is an old variety of Hokkien - Early Manila Hokkien - spoken in the 17th century. (It's not from 1969, but 2011. 1969 is the year of birth of the author.) Wilkinson Daniel Wong Gonzales's 2018 M.A. thesis mentions six waves of Hokkien immigration (which would have brought Hokkien to the Philippines in differing degrees) and three contemporary varieties of Hokkien - Philippine Hokkien, Philippine Hybrid Hokkien (Hokaglish), and Mainland Hokkien (from 'wave 6' immigrants). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:03, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: And about the stats from the cemetery, I think it's a slight stretch to use that as supporting evidence for the composition/formation of Philippine Hokkien. While it is likely that immigration patterns have an important role in dictating how a new dialect emerges (as some sociolinguists like Peter Trudgill has argued for English dialects - can't remember exactly where), the source that you cite doesn't actually link the immigration patterns with the formation of the dialect. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:52, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@MarkH21: The percentages are not supposed to add up to 100% because there is 9.86% from Guangdong, which is not relevant to the discussion. Oops, never mind. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:01, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

I've removed the ancestry percentage stats from the article. As Justinrleung mentions, it is a stretch to make that connection in WP voice without a source making it directly (otherwise WP:SYNTH). Without the connection, it's an irrelevant statement about the distribution for a cemetery. Either way, it doesn't belong. — MarkH21 (talk) 03:06, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, WP:SYNTH was exactly what I was looking for. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:12, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998 and MarkH21: I've also stumbled upon this website, which has some interesting stuff. There's an interesting section on Hokkien orthography, which might address the [d] problem. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Philippine Hokkien and Eastern Jinjiang Hokkien

Soooo, I've done a bit of research lately and mostly watched videos of people from Quanzhou speaking Hokkien. What really caught my eye was the Jinjiang accent which the Philippine Hokkien accent is known to be based from.

Philippine Hokkien and Eastern Jinjiang Hokkien are EXTREMELY SIMILAR.

Basically, there's two main accents in Jinjiang and it's divided into the East and West accents. The Eastern accent （东部口音） is also known as the “海口腔” presumably because Eastern Jinjiang is basically bordering the sea, and the Western accent （西部口音）is also known as the “府城腔“.

I'll basically be explaining this video (but still watch it because it pronounces the words): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax4YTtcZ5iU&feature=youtu.be

Eastern Jinjiang Hokkien (let's call this EJH) and Western Jinjiang Hokkien (let's call this WJH) have small differences and are definitely completely mutually intelligible.

1. EJH's "e" becomes WJH's "ə" (ə sounds like how we say snake in Mandarin, "shé") For example:

说话 (speak)

• EJH: seʔ ue
• WJH: səʔ ue

火 (fire, light)

• EJH: he
• WJH: hə

皮 (blanket)

• EJH: pʰe
• WJH: pʰə

Notice how Philippine Hokkien says exactly what EJH says, and if you watch the video, the tones are EXACTLY the same.

2. EJH's "i" becomes WJH's "ɯ" 去 (go)

• EJH: kʰi
• WJH: kʰɯ

鱼 (fish)

• EJH: hi
• WJH: hɯ

箸 (chopsticks)

• EJH: ti
• WJH: tɯ

3. EJH's supposed Yang Shang tone is now just Yin Ping

• Yang Shang is slightly lower than Yin Ping and these two tones are differentiated in WJH, whereas in EJH, they have merged into just Yin Ping, so in theory, EJH does have one less tone than WJH
• Philippine Hokkien follows the EJH trend and thus, we have merged our Yang Shang and Yin Ping tones into just Yin Ping

This video gives a more specific explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B7XSX-5XtE&feature=youtu.be

To sum this all up, the Philippine Hokkien accent is extremely similar (maybe even 100% similar if we're only talking about tones) to the Eastern Jinjiang accent. The only differences will be our colloquialisms (including old ones no longer used in Fujian) and borrowed words from English and Filipino.

Kamkamkamuti (talk) 17:58, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kamkamkamuti: Wikipedia does not allow for original research. If you find a published reliable source supporting your theory, then it can be added. — MarkH₂₁^talk 15:00, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

@MarkH21: Noted, I just found this really interesting and I wanted to put it somewhere. Hopefully more studies will be done about Philippine Hokkien in the future so that it will be easier to find sources. -Kamkamkamuti (talk) 01:53, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Learning Hokkien?

I'll be putting sources which I think can be useful and interesting for people who want to learn/improve on their Philippine Hokkien.

YouTube Sources:

1. Learn with Mish

• She teaches Philippine Hokkien: Vocabulary, Listening Comprehension (conversations), and even some things about Lan Nang culture (dos and don'ts)
• Probably the best, (if not one of the only) sources I've found for learning Philippine Hokkien.

2. 说咱闽南话

• This channel is almost 100% in Chinese (Mandarin and Hokkien) and mostly features the Jinjiang Accent (which is very similar to the Philippine Hokkien Accent).
• 说咱闽南话 is also an app and allows you to watch videos, learn common phrases, listen to music, listen to audio, search for literary, vernacular, and colloquial pronunciations in their dictionary, etc. all in Hokkien (based on Western Jinjiang Hokkien)
• has a channel on Bilibili with the same name
• Interesting Segments Include:

• Pohling Tan - He does a variety of videos ranging from vlogs to describing differences in accents to dissecting Hokkien song lyrics. His videos are mainly in Hokkien (Western Jinjiang Accent). He also has a channel on Bilibili called "闽南后生家Pohling".

• 易起学闽南语 - Explains tones, consonant endings, etc. within the Jinjiang region (the accent that a lot of 80 to 90 year olds in Binondo have), videos are explained in Mandarin

• 闽南语小剧场 - A series of funny skits wherein about 95% is in Mandarin and they insert Hokkien phrases used often and applicable in daily life.

3. Yukkan Wong

• Somewhat of a re-uploader of videos (mostly Hokkien variety shows, talk shows, interviews) that aren't posted on YouTube but rather on Chinese sites and platforms.
• I suggest watching the videos in Quanzhou Hokkien（泉州闽南话）to practice listening comprehension (although do take note that some words used are not used here in Philippine Hokkien and some word definitions may have also evolved).

4. 超度你

• Uploads videos comparing Hokkien from different regions.
• I suggest watching this if you want to understand more about Hokkien in general and are just curious about what Hokkien in other places sounds like.
• Useful if you're going to go to a Hokkien-speaking place abroad because their videos let you hear all the pronunciation differences.
• Also has a Bilibili channel called “超度您”.

5. Hokkien in Hong Kong

• Another re-uploader of Hokkien shows.

Instagram Sources:

1. hokkien101

• Teaches common Hokkien phrases and offers Hokkien classes

2. philippinehokkien

• Teaches mostly Hokkien vocabulary but also phrases sometimes
• Posts regularly

These are all the better sources I know for now, when I can't really find anything to watch, I just scroll around on the 说咱闽南话 app and check out their stuff. If you don't wanna do that, I'm sure you can find a lot more Hokkien content on Chinese platforms like Bilibili.

Kamkamkamuti (talk) 18:45, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kamkamkamuti sources from social media platforms are generally discouraged as unreliable, because these are user-generated. See WP:RSPYOUTUBE for example. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 00:44, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

"sap" for 30+

@Mlgc1998: I've never heard "sap" being used for 30. Is this from personal experience? Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:14, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser it's on the less frequent scale just as "siap" for 40+, but I've heard my parents use it. It would be used less frequently because "sap"(卅) competes with "sam"(三), which is like saying three-one for 31, and people more frequently count from 1-10 or 1-20 more than reaching 30+ or 40+ and in counting time, usually its on the 1s to 20s scale. Mlgc1998 (talk) 01:37, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Number of speakers?

Are their any sources with number of speakers of the language? 2001:EE0:4FB2:D950:44DD:B861:97DC:B9B3 (talk) 04:03, 13 May 2024 (UTC)