Talk:LGBT themes in comics

Rewrite

I've just gotten a book on this subject, so i'll be expanding it over the next few days. I've moved the list here, while we work out which are important to the topic. I think once the section is rewritten, the category should suffice.YobMod 17:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Babewatch

In 1995, Image comics sought to profit from the "'bad girl' trend in comics. . . by briefly turning many of their male heroes into women." This series was initiated in Youngblood, when "Glory's nemesis Diablolique takes revenge on Glory (and men in general) by turning every man Glory had ever met into a woman" [1].

Courier

Main article: Courier (comics)

A shape-shifting mutant, sometimes allied with the X-Man Gambit. An encounter between them and Mister Sinister resulted in his 'default form' being permanently altered from male to female. A situation she accepted, though not without a degree of resentment.

GrimJack

John Ostrander, in his GrimJack series, touched briefly on transgenderism on several occasions. A supporting character, Sphinx, was a sorceress who projected her consciousness into simulacra, some of whom were male. GrimJack issue 41 (December 1987) includes the character Carrie Seitz, a MTF transsexual. The overall GrimJack storyline included the death and reincarnation of the lead character, John Gault. An advertisement for the series included a number of possible future selves for Gault, including at least one female.

Lusiphur

When Lusiphur is trapped by his foes, a sorceress offers to help him, whereupon she casts a love spell on him. However, the spell goes wrong, transforming Lusiphur into "Lucy."

Mantra

Main article: Mantra (comic book)

On a 1994 Ultraverse trading card, Mantra's creator, Mike Barr, provides this information concerning his creation: "Mantra is a man, he just has a woman's body. It was from this dichotomy that Mantra sprang. From the major theme--a switch in genders--came the minor theme of the series: a warrior who must become a sorcerer, a slayer who must become a nurturing mother, a man who has died hundreds of times must become a woman who can only die once. That's the conundrum--and appeal--of Mantra" [2]. A Malibu Comics title, Mantra recounts how a warrior was reincarnated into a female fighter's body. After Marvel Comics bought Malibu, Mantra was retired.

Ranma Saotome

In the comedic manga Ranma 1/2, the main character Ranma Saotome is a boy, who, after falling into a cursed pond, frequently turns into a girl for comedic effect.

Sasquatch ("Wanda" Langkowski)

Main article: Sasquatch (comics)

Again, as a result of a complex series of transfers between male and female bodies, Sasquatch is reborn, if only temporarily, as Wanda Langkowski in Alpha Flight issues 45 through 68. In the series Exiles, an alternate universe'sHeather Hudson serves as a female host for Sasquatch.

Shade, the Changing Woman

After Peter Milligan revamped Steve Ditko's Shade the Changing Man in the 1990s, the series explored the idea of a character being reborn in different bodies. One of Shade’s rebirths results in a sex change that allows opportunities for humorous, ironic, sometimes satirical, social and political commentary. Among other themes, this comic book dealt with a man's becoming aware of, and sensitive to, the challenges and issues that a woman faces due to her own femininity, sexism, chauvinism, and life in general in a patriarchal society: She must learn to deal with female clothing and men's advances. There is a more than passing reference to dealing with PMS, the "heroine" has sex with the first man she comes across, and there is even the obligatory urinal joke. [3].

Awakening as a female one morning, Shade is first horrified by her transformation. However, with the help of her female friends, she meets these and other challenges, experiences her first kiss and her first sexual encounter with a man, and must make the ultimate decision as to whether to become a man again. Later in the series, “Shade's son George is put into the body of Lenny's daughter, Lilly” [4].

Xavin (Runaways)

Main article: Xavin

Xavin is an alien shapeshifter, who when fighting is usually in male form, however whenever having 'down time' or relaxing tends to revert to female form. Xavin possesses the ability to take any form he/she desires, including sex changes. After becoming engaged to Karolina Dean, a lesbian, he/she begins to spend much of his/her time as a female. Though most of his/her teammates have expressed discomfort with Xavin constantly switching between forms, Xavin views his/her shapeshifting no differently than most people view changing hair color and has defended this decision vocally. This may be an overt nod to transgender issues - Runaways creator Brian K. Vaughan is notably friendly to LGBT issues.

Kudos

Hey there Yobmod, I finally had a chance to look over your move of/changes to this article and redirect of the List of LGBT characters in comics, and I just wanted to say that it's all lookin' great! Thanks! — TAnthony^Talk 16:23, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Certainly better after you fixed up my writing!

For anyone planning on formatting it, the list is still around for working on, linked in the archive box above - i did it as a copy/paste move so the redirect would point here rather than to talk space, then put the category as the see also in the mean time.

If anyone has any info on underground comics, that would be great, as that is by far the subject i'm having most problems finding RS for. I was suprised Gay Comix was not an article, but now i see why. Also, i started a list of GLAAD comics awards on the GLAAD Awards talk page. The older awards have very patchy informaion online - does anyone know a source for eaarly awards?YobMod 20:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah, found some underground comics info, think it covers enough for GA.

Hey there, you're still doing great ... I'll try to save my copyediting for when you're not actively editing, sorry if I've caused you any edit conflicts this morning ;) — TAnthony^Talk 16:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Ex links

Submitted to DMOZ, putting here while waiting to see if it is added there:

• Perry Moore II: Looking at the Gay Landscape, Newsarama, August 20, 2008

Gender swapping

"Gender-swapping storylines and characters

Very few mainstream comic books have introduced transgendered characters. However, it is quite common for characters to have their gender changed for a short time by science-fictional or magical means. A number of characters also exist that have the ability to change their sex at will.

In comic books that include male-to-female or female-to-male transformations, the characters undergo these transformations as a result of a variety of causes, including: Genetic mutations, Magic, Shape-shifting abilities, Psychic powers, and Sex-change drugs."

I rescued this from the page history, to remind us to research it, and other uses of comic book tropes as LGBT metaphors.YobMod 13:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Hold on a minute

DC Comics have included gay subtext in their publications since the Golden Age of comics, with readers inferring homosexuality between superheroes and their side-kicks

It seems to me there is a marked difference between "included" and "inferred", if anyone has any sources that Batman writers were actually *writing* a queer sub-text, I'd like to see them. Can you make a queer reading of the texts? sure, were they writing them in? I don't think so... --Cameron Scott (talk) 16:21, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

According to the Encyclopedia of gay histories and culture: "D.C. initiated gay subtext half a century ago". I read initiated as being a purposeful verb, so the writers were writing subtext in.YobMod 16:39, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree that the passage as-written says a lot more than can be supported. I've tweaked it by attributing it more directly to the source and removing the suggestion that the subtext was actively included by DC or the writers. No direct sources seem to indicate that this was the case at this point. I think we also have to take into account that looking back at things like the "Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson in bed" panel through our modern cultural glasses adds a misleading layer of interpretation.— TAnthony^Talk 16:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Fine by me. I always prefer people to change my articles, it makes the language more varied. (Although are "include" and "found in" not the same? Neither imply purpose or design. eg. "The colours of the rainsbow include red and blue" does not imply the existance of a God, purposely putting them in there. Or does it?). And the congressional enquiry indicate people were not so naive in the 50's that they couldn't recognize subtext, so i don't think our modern view is that different.

Anyway, i am essentially done. There are a few more things to add, but none are needed for GA, imo. So i'll submit to GAN tomorrow - any copyediting before or during would be a great help!YobMod 17:07, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

It could be argued that "include" puts the responsibility on the writer, while "found in" puts it on the reader. But as long as it's attributed to the source, I'm probably splitting hairs. I will definitely try to look the article over ASAP, but I'm sure it's fine for GAN at this point.— TAnthony^Talk 21:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

To do (for FA?)

.

DC comics: Flash and Green lantern. (won GLAAD and GS awards).

Marvel: More on Northstar (being a fairy, the AIDS baby, Anole) and x-statix, young avengers

Is poor old Freedom Ring worth a mention here too? Gonzonoir (talk) 14:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, if more examples are to be included, i think they should be women or trans or something to show variety. Unfortunately, none of the print sources discuss any more (inc. Freedom Ring).

freedom Ring is now discussed as the subarticle, LGBT themes in Americn mainstream comics!YobMod 11:03, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Other companies: Image's Spawn, Dark Horses Buffy, imprints? Vertigo, Wildstorm, Maxx.

Alternative: Love and Rockets.

Censorship Expand on comics code. First version banned perversion, criminals, undermining marriage. Latest version has multiple (3?) mentions of sexual orientation.

DC

DC gets a comparatively good rap in this article. Has anyone come across an RS-compliant source discussing the fact that many of their gay characters, especially the earlier ones, appear on imprints, rather than in mainstream DC universe titles? Disregard Vertigo and Wildstorm, and DC's track record doesn't look so much more progressive than Marvel's. Gonzonoir (talk)

I have sources mentioning that LGBT characters more more likely found in imprints. I'll add it. Don't know which comics are from which imprint though, is it worth noting it for each one?

Sounds great. FWIW: Sandman's Vertigo; Apollo and Midnighter are from the Wildstorm title Authority. I believe Wildstorm was independent when The Authority launched (DC bought it in 1999, but later in the year I think), so these were gay characters who weren't introduced under DC's aegis. Gonzonoir (talk) 12:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Another question is these pesky "conservative protests". Is the sentence on regular complaints enough, or should i add it to each example (Green Lantern, Batwoman, Young Avengers, Northstar i have sources for, and can probably find for the others) - they would mostly not say much more than "conservatives protested", hence my bunndling them into a general sentence.YobMod 13:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

If it's really as straightforward as "conservatives protested", I'd say a catch-all section is fine. Any protests that took an unusual form, or gained unusual amounts of coverage, might be worth covering separately, though. Stuff from comics creators, too, might be of interest; I seem to remember Chuck Dixon decrying the gay reincarnation of Rawhide Kid. Gonzonoir (talk) 14:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

DC was presenting gay characters before Marvel, if not ongoing ones and if largely on a wink-wink-nudge-nudge basis. My collection's packed away right now, but two omissions come to mind: Mike Grell's run on Green Arrow had the character fighting gay-bashers in the first issue, and Keith Giffen's run on Legion of Super-Heroes had a quietly suggested relationship between Lightning Lass and Shrinking Violet, with a later series similarly having a unspoken but clear relationship between Invisible Kid and Condo Arlik (who only appears the once, working as a newscaster and the idea that they meet later is whispered between them).Skyhawk0 (talk) 11:43, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

British comics

This phrasing looks great :) I was only objecting to the idea that today in Britain people regard comics as solely for kids, but obviously there's a specific subgenre of British homegrown stuff that very much was pitched at kids. Nowadays, of course, you get stuff like Kev, which is very British and very unsuitable for kids, but maybe this is some kind of modern metagenre, and maybe I'm just Comic Book Gal and have too much of a hot button about this :) Gonzonoir (talk) 12:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Is all good. According to the source, kids comics became the biggest market before 1914 and this is still the case until after 1990s. Is difficult to remember that WHSmiths is still the biggest comic book seller in the UK, with cheap kids comics being the biggest sellers - but "most of 20th century" covers it :-).YobMod 12:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't know that about Smiths. Live and learn :) Gonzonoir (talk) 14:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Mark Slackmeyer

The reference to Mark should be re-worked to clarify that he was not openly gay upon introduction. He didn't come out until sometime in the 1990s, after Andy Lippencott's death. Otto4711 (talk) 07:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the info - it made me search out more sources, and you're completely right.YobMod 08:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Yaoi and yuri rewrite

The citations in the yaoi and yuri section do not match up with what they are said to cite. Although anal sex is a prevalent theme in the Boys Love genre as a whole, to compare it with yuri and say that "Yaoi has buttsex, but yuri talks about their character's feelings" does BL a disservice. Yaoi doujinshi can be PWP, but BL is not always PWP. Thank you. --Malkinann (talk) 22:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

This article, which details "gay manga", may also prove helpful in expanding information about gay themes in comics by gay men for gay men. --Malkinann (talk) 23:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

You also need to talk about transgender themes in manga more, such as Ranma 1/2. This article may help you do that. --Malkinann (talk) 23:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I clarified some (ie seems the conusion is from fans using yaoi=BL, whereas other say Ysoi = sex and BL = romance). I expanded the gay manga part, and will add moreemes also on trans th. Also added something on funtari already as transgender-linked themes, but it needs citing.

I don't think the "rewrite" template is needed, unless you think the whole section is wrong - but at least half came from the paragrpahs we co-wrote at the SF article. Expanding much more will take this section far beyond summary style, imo. Apart from gay manga, everything else should be (and is) covered in the subarticles.

It is erroneous, for example, to call shoujo manga "shoja", which was why I deleted that - it was probably a typo in the source. Also, it is erroneous to describe Class S as a manga genre - it is a largely extinct genre of girl's stories/novels from the early 20th century. I do not seek to expand the section a lot - but it does not cover the trans part nearly as well as it could. --Malkinann (talk) 07:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Well wikipedia and the sources disagree with you about shoja - it is just a different transliteration, not a mistake. There is no class S manga? I so, you i'll re-remove it. Class S manga exists (i checked). I reworded so it is not saying it is only a genre of manga, we can shorten it if it really minor, but google gets a lot of hits for "class S manga".

I'll write some more on trans themes. I though Bishonen and futanari covered it well enough, but it seems not.YobMod 08:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Even so, we should try to avoid jargon and not introduce a term when it's not needed - a link to manga aimed at girls should really do the trick. The sources I've read all describe Class S as a more-or-less dead genre, and a literary one at that. There may be some contemporary curiosity, due to the description of Marimite as a revival of the Class S genre, but perhaps the google hits are due to the phrase "classes" or "Class's"? --Malkinann (talk) 08:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

But if any exist, why shouldn't they be covered? They are a type of LGBT themes in manga, no? We can shorten it, i guess.

I would be happy to remove all the linkable Japanese terms as jargon. I only use them as it seems standard for manga GAs. Some of them use a japanese word in every sentence!YobMod 08:13, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I've shortened the Class S reference to a level I feel comfortable with, but I'm still iffy on including it here at all, as it's about comics, not literature. I would suggest you read Wikipedia:MOS-JA to help you to clarify when to use what. When an article exists on a subject, like futanari, link to the article, and don't use the kana. When an article doesn't exist on a subject, use the kana alongside. Even if you link, it can be helpful to put the article in context for your audience, so that they don't have to leave your article in order to understand it. Clear as mud? ;-) --Malkinann (talk) 08:41, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Worldwide tag

I just added the {worldwide} tag to this article, since at least 75% of it is concerned with the US. Considering that comics is more accepted and common in Europe and Japan (arguably in Europe, without a doubt in Japan) than the US, this seems like a huge US centric bias. Much of the article takes the stance that US = the baseline which is just so untrue in the context of comics. Dendlai (talk) 03:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Do osme research, this reflects the sources. US comics are by far more popular in Wurope and UK than european comics. This is in he article and cited. Find a source for a country that's missing, then you may have a point.YobMod 06:52, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Eh? My point is this article focuses heavily on the US (And, contrary to what you claim, US comics aren't more popular in Europe than European comics). I just wished to explain why I added the tag. I can't quite see what your point is. Dendlai (talk) 07:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Luckily it is not my opinion - it is cited in the article. US comics are more popular in Europe than european comics. Hence "do some research". The Manga section summarises 3 (at least subarticles), and little has been written about gay themes in european comics becasue they were never banned and are not controversial. This article reflects the weighting given to the subject in the sources.YobMod 07:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Find a single source discussing LGBT themes in european comics that goes into more depth than here - then maybe your claim of undue weight would have merit. I already had to include examples that had no discusion of the works significance - sources for this do not exist, hence cannot be written aobut in the article.

In the sources used, yes, which are mainly (only) English language sources. That doesn't mean much (wikipedia doesn't have a "use English language surces only" policy). The article currently has ONE sentence claiming US comics are more popular in Europe than European comics, sourced to (possibly, the source may just refer to the sentence after) "Reading Comics: Language, Culture, and the Concept of the Superhero in Comic Books.". Reliable source for the claim that kind of claim...? Furthermore, of the sections in the article; "Comic strips" and "Underground and alternative comics" both are entirely about the US. Saying it is because what the sources used are about the US just affirms my complaint: The article is US centric and that is the because of the sources people writing it have looked for. Much of the US material could/should be greatly condensed. Dendlai (talk) 08:01, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, reliable sources say that. Multiple reliable sources. You want me to add more, even though you have shown no proof that your OR has any basis in fact? If you think coverage is lacking, show me the sources (and i didn't only read English sources, German ones too, but they say nothing more). LGBt themes are little discussed in european comics, becasue they are no controversial. Comics are seen a another form of lit, and its inclusion of LGBT themes is simply not the sticking point it has been in the US.YobMod 08:05, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

You have one point there; that LGBT themes in comics have been more controversial in the US. But this article SHOULD NOT be only about controversy, but about how those themes are covered etc. It currently gives too much room to US controversy. And yes, I would like to see multiple reliable sources saying the popularity if US comics far outstrips the popularity of European comics in Europe. It's a fairly sensational claim to me, considering ALL US comics published in Sweden probably has less circulation than Tintin alone. Dendlai (talk) 08:12, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

So write a cited paragrpah about LGBT themes in swedish comics. Or do you only template articles, and not give any contribution? Just find a single secondary source discussing LGBT themes in european comics.YobMod 08:16, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I will add to this article; One problem is, of course, that most sources that would be useful are of the paper variety, which means it will take some time getting/finding them. And your aggressiveness is quite useless. I point out this article is US centric; it is NOT a personal attack on you (as for only tagging and not contributing, I don't tag much, and actually spend quite some time trying to source claims made in articles I come across, most recently LGBT rights in Sweden). Dendlai (talk) 08:29, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

My "aggresivness" comes from the fact that i've been asking for help and input on this article for weeks, from all the involved projects. No-one has made any content contributions, and people waited until after i submitted for GA to start adding templates, which would cause a quick fail, again making no content additions at all.

This article has more research and sources put into it than 99% of good articles, particularly on comics, and yet it seems people want it to fail, or are holding it up to a different standard becasue it is queer. GA criteria says only that it must be only broad in coverage, and imo this reaches that level. Expecting it to be comprehensive at this stage is unfair - i completely agree that a lot more can be written for all sections, but that is for going on to FA, and certainly doesn't merit templating. Anyway, i'll promise to do more on european comics (I found something about a french lesbian comic that was censored), but please stop adding the template, so i have the GA waiting period to expand. GA waits can be more than a month: if this is quick failed, it will have to go to the back of the queue.YobMod 08:39, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

As a third party observer I have to agree with User:Yobmod. LGBT themes in comic is a recent development in and of itself and coverage of such material in North America, Europe and Japan represent the largest comic book markets on earth. Let me specify there is VERY little reliable third party academic/scholarly commentary on comic books in general because of the early 20th century bias that comic books cannot be taken as seriously as literature. For this reason alone, the article is extremely comprehensive (for a GA level article). A US/Japnese-centric perspective is not a bias of the article itself or its primary contributor...its simply a accurate reflection of "LGBT themes in comics" in the world today. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 08:50, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

(Just pointing out that: Ich bin kein Amerikaner oder Japaner, also habe ich auch keine japanische/amerikanische Perspektive. Ich werde heute einen deutschen Comicladen besuchen, und suche irgendwas, das ich als Referenz nutzen kann.)

Auch: Ist Tintin schwul?YobMod 09:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about Tintin being a schwul, but I have my suspicions about Professor Calculus... Anyways, expansion on the Japanese and European sections are needed, IMO. I can't believe there's been nothing in France and french comics regarding LGBT themes for example, considering the strong position and tradition of comics there (The Ninth Art). Too bad my French sucks or I would look for French sources... Dendlai (talk) 09:47, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure i've seen something about gay subtext in Asterix and Tintin, but don't know if it was reliable. I can also find more examples of French comics and even discussion of them in secondary sources, but not a single source that talks about their significance as representations of LGBT themes. Wothout context it just sounds like a laundry list, but i'll add some anyway. Also, i would not be suprised at the lack of french/German sources - as far as i can tell ,there is not a single English language book on this subject either, just sources on LGBT culture or comics in general, that have a single page on LGBT themes. This article already covers more about the subject than any source i can find.YobMod 16:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Examples:

• "History and Politics in French-Language Comics and Graphic Novels", MArk Mckinney does not contain the words gay, lesbian, homosexual* or LGBT.
• "Homosexuität und Lituratur". One hit for comics: (xxxx is a porno-comic), of no use.
• "Handbook of French popular culture" Von Pierre L. Horn. Has a whole chapter on comics, but no mention of LGBt themes
• "Comics & Culture" Von Anne Magnussen, Hans-Christian Christiansen (Dänisch?). One hit for homosexual, about lack of American gay superheroes. No hits for gay, lesbian. LGBT etc.

The main points about this article are that 1) Two sections of the article, "Comic strips" and "Underground and alternative comics" are about the US only and so should be under the "Comics in America" headline and 2) The lack of coverage of French comics. That *English* language sources neglect the area is one thing, but that just shows that the article needs the help of a French-speaking BD afficinado. I don't claim to be as well-read as you with regards to comics, but I have some knowledge, and one thing I've gathered from the sources I have read is that France is second only to Japan with regards to comics. Dendlai (talk) 05:09, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Agreed that comic strips needs diversifying - also needs something about editorial cartoons, which must have covered LGBT people or used it as "satire" "Let's imply that a politician is a cross-dresser"-type hilarity". Any sources would be great! After searching through German books for hours, i am still unconvinced that you sources you expect in French really exist, but I'm adding some stuff on individual french comics. Note, one of the English sources above is written by a french guy, if there is french literature on this, he ignored it.

Underground comics is not only US. I'm sure i don't have to tell you that Tom of Finland is not US-based, and Ralf König's underground work is discussed in his paragraph rather than splitting it accross two sections. The source list another 4 or 5 names, some of which may be non-US, but all redlinked when added, so they are quoted in the reference. According to their articles, underground comix started as a response against censorship, so have much less demarcation in Europe. Ralf König started underground, but is not regarded as different from other European producers. Without the opposition between mainstream and underground, most sources treat European comics as a continuum. YobMod 07:09, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

citation templates

I've replaced most of the citations with template:citation which can be used for any source, regardless of whether its coming from a web site, newspaper, journal etc. FA will be a lot more meticulous when it comes to the quality of sources and the format of references, but I still consider this GA quality. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 01:05, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Cool, thanks! I usually ignore reference formatting until after GA, but it certainly looks better, so earlier is good.YobMod 08:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Ignoring the format of references is a big no! no! It will come back to bite you in the ass because FA reviwers will fail the article if the references are screwed up, even if the rest of the article is perfect. Its best to get it out of the way as quickly as humanly possible. Even with GA, its possible to get a quick fail based on sources/references since its the foundation of the articles information. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 12:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, i know you are right. But that is why i don't take articles to FAN - i could write a GA article with 100 sources in the time it takes to fix all the MoS niggles and change hyphens to n-dashes and double dashes to m-dashes etc etc, which benefits the reader not a jot. But thanks! And i promise to use the general template in future (why do the others even exist?)YobMod 14:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Its just a personal preference: some editors are accustomed to only using web sources or journal sources, etc. I always use a wide variety, so its easier for me to use the universal template. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 06:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Omissions

Unless I'm missing something important (not unlikely!), why on earth aren't Strangers in Paradise and Love & Rockets mentioned at all? Surely the two most important/visible depictions of lesbians in comics deserve considerable (or at least passing) mention? Also, possibly, Alan Moore's considerable contributions to LGBT charactisation - not least that it was his own company that published ARGHH! - includes the many different characters in Promethea which also tangentially echo the subtexts in Wonder Woman.
As well as Moore, Neil Gaiman may warrant particular mention - I recall him talking about appearing <somewhere> and getting applause merely 'for the correct pronunciation' of his name..!
Should openly-LGBT (and LGBT-friendly) creators be talked about more? People like Devin Grayson and Phil Jimenez, or the GLAAD Award-winners (e.g. Judd Winnick), or even the intersection of LGBT themes with the treatment of women in comics in general, which would also overlap with the Friends of Lulu. (Which name is obviously evocative in and of itself.)
The Young Avengers is reasonable to consider, but Brian K Vaughan's Runaways (which, like Rawhide Kid, was published under a separate imprint) brought gay teenagers to Marvel earlier. ntnon (talk) 20:48, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

All very good points, and things to consider for addition, especially before considering Featured Article Review. Prominent writers and Awards of queer themes should probably get their own section. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 20:58, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Also agree. I used all the examples that the 100 reliable sources used, hence Gaiman and Winnick are in there, but Moore and Grayson are not. Likewise with Young Avenger's rather than Runaways - the former had a source in a book, Runaways i only know from the comic itself and blogs. If anyone has other reliable sources that discusses these writers' or books' use of LGBt themes, it would be great. However, i didn't find any such sources, and i don't think using primary sources would be a good idea. I have a source for Love & Rockets, but haven't added it due to complaints about there being to many U.S. examples already. If people think it would not be undue US focus, i'll add a paragrph on it.

some of the GLAAd awards and Gaylactic award winners are already in there, so once there are enough, a separate section, with some a summary of the awards would seem like a good idea. I think the biggest current ommision is not solved by adding more examples, but the need for a "Fandom" section. I know Comicon has had panels on this issue, but didn't find enough to make a section yet. Maybe make Awards a subsection of Fandom, or a combined section?YobMod 08:51, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Superman

"Superman was turned gay in a single comic book where he is exposed to Pink Kryptonite. From Supergirl (vol. 2) #79, an alternate timeline in a 2003 Supergirl storyline by Peter David. It affected the Superman of this reality; one of the results is Superman giving flattering compliments to Jimmy Olsen about his wardrobe and decorative sense. It spoofs the more "innocent times" of the Silver Age (Lois Lane is depicted in this story as not understanding what's gotten into Superman)."

I think this needs a secondary source discussing it, rather than the ocmic book panel. I agree that he is supposed to be acting gay from the Pink Kryptonite, but it seems not an important example, unless we have sources about it.YobMod 08:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

References

Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn

There fails to be mention of them in the article. Didn't the creator say they had a relationship,and their relationship has been speculated before? 98.14.15.12 (talk) 17:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Splitting an American comics subarticle? GA worthy?

Since reaching GA, most of the article expansion has been in the US section, and many of the talk page suggestions too. Although additions are often unsourced, my previous research showed that many could be sourced (and were not included due to space constraints and the sources being websites rather than books).

Do editors think we could make a GA worthy article just about the mainstream US comics, or would it be too listy (xxxx kissed yyyy in issue zzzz, aaaa dressed as a woman in issue bbbb) or too specific? If I split a subarticle off, what more needs including to make that GA (it is pretty comprehensive already, imo). Also how much of a summary should be left behind? (I'm thinking at least as large as the other sections, so 6-7 paragraphs). This would then make the article much more resistant to "worldwide" or "undue weight" tagging - i just don't like creating articles that can't be at least GA :-). YobMod 07:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Removing a cited sentence

The article had in it this sentence and citation:

"Gay manga often have more realistic and autobiographical themes compared to yaoi." Cited to: Haggerty, George E. (2000). Encyclopedia of Gay Histories and Cultures. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 9780815318804. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help), page 494

I looked up the cite in hopes of finding more info, and found that it does not discuss gay men's manga at all; it moves directly from a discussion of yaoi to a discussion of novels by gay men (which are described as "marked by realism and often appear to be autobiographical"). Therefore, I have removed this sentence, as it is a misinterpretation of the cited work. - JRBrown (talk) 20:35, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The Joker.

There's plenty of evidence suggestion that the Joker has some gay fixation on Batman. Here's a list of comic book quotes & what issues they come from; most of them sounding a bit romantic. http://community.livejournal.com/joker_in_ink/42633.html & littered among this gallery are actual scans these quotes are taken from: http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/likalaruku/narcissus-his-twisted-reflection/108-29125/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.118.100 (talk) 11:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

We have a sentence mentioning the Joker, any more would be too much detail imo, as there are so few reliable sources discussing it. If there are sources explaining why the Joker relationship to Batman is a "homophobic nightmare", (which is the quote in the article) that would be helpful. The primary sources themselves are much too vague, which would explain why commentators haven't really focused on itYobMod 11:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Needing citing

"Belgian comics series such as Blake and Mortimer', Tif et Tondu and Spirou et Fantasio often depicted men living together and even sleeping in the same rooms — albeit in separate beds. However, these series always focused on adventure and/or comedy, with sexuality completely absent."

This paragraph has grown over time, since the GA passed, but no sourcing was added. We already have paragrpahs on Belgian comics, with exampes (Tintin, Aterix, Alix) and sources discussing how LGBT themes have been inferred by readers, while not necessarily intended by the writers. Further examples and expansion would be great, but all would need sources discussing any LGBT interpretation, or at least a source saying there have been some. Hopefully the titles here will help people find such sources (there were none in the wiki-articles unfortunately).YobMod 13:34, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Except for Alix, I'm quite skeptical to most of these claims. They seem to be inferred readings to start with. It's like claiming that Abbott and Costello or Laurel and Hardy etc. are gay couples. It's rather an example of male normativity. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Btw, this sentence is unsourced, as well:

However, early Franco-Belgian comics for children such as The Adventures of Tintin, Asterix, and The Adventures of Alix have also
had sexual and LGBT subtext found in them.

惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

That is not unsourced. The sources are given as footnotes in the paragraph. But i think claims that are common enough to be printed in mainstream sources and get a response from the creator (Tintin) are obviously of interest.YobMod 00:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

In that case, the paragraph seems unconnected to the citations. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The citations were after the sentences discussing each work, in the same paragraph. Anyway, i added another 6 sources.YobMod 00:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

O_O I've read most of those comics and that sort of reading is.. well like saying Ernie and Bert are at it or Eric and Ernie. The problem with saying "is there a source" is that you can find some ragbag source that finds homosexuality in anything, I'd be more interested to know if it was an accepted mainstream reading by queer thinkers or just a bit of tat. --Cameron Scott (talk) 23:48, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The source for the bits that are sourced is a book: "Reading Bande Dessinee: Critical Approaches to French-language Comic Strip". It is as respectable a source as most any on wikipedia imo, so something of similar quality would be nice for the examples i moved here. Or if the LGBT interpretations are really fringe, they can just be left here.YobMod 00:19, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I think I can get hold of that, I'll take a look and see if it provides any context for any of the other claims. I have access to other comic related books but I doubt they cover it. I could dig into some French language material but it's been a while... :-) --Cameron Scott (talk) 00:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I basically agree with Cameron Scott, but the book seems to be a classic scholarly work. I have trouble judging the claims any further without having read the book myself, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Now 9 sources for these, including books and National newspapers. I can keep adding more, although my French is rusty. "We boys together: teenagers in love before girl-craziness" is another acedemic work (from a university press) that discusses Tintin and Alix and some others. It's on googlebooks.YobMod 00:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

LGBT Valiant characters

Does anyone know of any LGBT characters in Valiant titles? I can only find mention that once character was once intended to be gay, but the story never happened. Considering Shooter's remarks about Marvel's lack of LGBT characters and his Hulk gay rape story, i'm suprised his company has nothing.YobMod 17:58, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Marvel's alleged anti-gay policy

With suggestions of homosexuality banned by the Comics Code Authority until 1989, as mentioned in the article, many of this article's complaints against Marvel in the 1980s are inappropriate. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 03:35, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

First openly gay comic book hero?

In regard to Rawhide Kid, is this an accurate astatement? Northstar was openly gay when he had his own limited series, which was many years before Slap Leather. Is this statement made in the sense of retcon? --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 18:04, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Hothead Paisan

No mention of Hothead Paisan? :( Kaldari (talk) 04:40, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

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Lynn Johnston death threats?

I am removing (for the third time) the remark about death threats against Lynn Johnston. It makes reference to two sources, one which was a deadlink, and the other which mentions that residuals dropped, and as such Lynn had a tougher time making payments on her Lexus. Hardly a threat on one's life or limb. USN1977 (talk) 03:15, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

It's well sourced and factual. Please stop trying to suppress this information. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 13:42, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

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more organizations and awards

I've added the following to the introduction, but in time this might require summarizing and moving to awards section.

The Lambda Literary Foundation created new categories for graphic works for their "Lammy Award" in 2014. Also Prism Comics is a comic book specific organization and provides the "Queer Press Grant" for comic book creators.

Also adding the following to the Underground and alternative comics section:

In 2010 Northwest Press began publishing LBGTQ themed works.

Perhaps external links need to be added for these organizations?

Also, I'm not tied to using LBGTQ in place of LGBT, but is there discussion on Wikipedia about how this new acronym is to be used?

Volpane (talk) 19:54, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't see a need for external links here. If an entity is noteworthy enough to have an article, an external link to their site can go there.

LGBTQ vs. LGBT: the latter is more widely used, and has become the mainstream media's default term, so it's probably the more neutral term, especially since it's in the title of the article. If a specific item is described in sources as "LGBTQ" (or some other description) use that. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 00:36, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I see my use of "LBGTQ" is unique although I've formed a personal opinion that putting the "B" between "L" and "G" better reflects the spectrum of variation today. I will make appropriate adjustments if you haven't already.Volpane (talk) 17:11, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Adding additional dates to clarify organization's longevity and improve sentence style. Volpane (talk) 17:23, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

revising introduction summary

This introduction reads weak and biased towards US culture as the first paragraph focuses primarily on the US, including essential information about comics in the US only. Bias continues into the comic strip paragraph at the bottom. I propose the following rewrite with some reorganization, primarily moving the "fandom and awards" section out of "Mainstream American" and below "Mainstream Japanese" into its own new section, in order to allow more inclusive reporting on international awards and fandom, later on. I've also moved around some sentences that have become orphaned below unrelated subjects. This may seem a radical proposal, but I feel it better represents this subject. Please offer any consensus:

LGBT themes in comics are a relatively new concept, as lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) themes and characters were historically omitted intentionally from the content of comic books and their comic strip predecessors, due to either censorship or the perception that comics were for children. In the Twentieth century, the popularity of comic books in the USA, Europe and Japan have seen distinct approaches to LGBT themes. With only minimal attention to LGBT characters in the early part of the century using innuendo, subtext and inference, to out-right acceptance later on and into the Twenty-first century, exploring challenges of coming-out and discrimination in society, LGBT themes in comics reflect the change towards acceptance in world-wide attitudes with homosexuality, cross-dressing and gender dysphoria. Queer theorists have noted that LGBT characters in mainstream comic books are usually shown as assimilated into heterosexual society, whereas in alternative comics the diversity and uniqueness of LGBT culture is emphasized.

With any mention of homosexuality in mainstream United States comics forbidden by the Comics Code Authority (CCA) between 1954 and 1989, earlier attempts at exploring these issues in the US took the form of subtle hints or subtext regarding a character's sexual orientation. LGBT themes were tackled earlier in underground comix from the early 1970s onward. Independently published one-off comic books and series, produced by gay creators featured autobiographical storylines tackling political issues of interest to LGBT readers, began in the mid-'70s, gaining popularity through the '80s. Since the 1990s LGBT themes have become more common in mainstream US comics, including in a number of titles in which a gay character is the star.

Comic strips have also dealt in subtext and innuendo, their wide distribution in print newspapers and magazines limiting their inclusion of controversial material. The first openly gay characters in the US appeared in prominent strips in the late 1970s; representation of LGBT issues in these titles causes vociferous reaction, both praise and condemnation. Today comic strips educating readers about LGBT-related issues are syndicated in LGBT-targeted print media and online in web comics.

A lack of censorship and greater acceptance of comics as a medium for adult entertainment in Europe has lead European comics to be more inclusive from an earlier date, leading to less controversy about the representation of LGBT characters in their pages. Notable comics creators have produced work from France, Belgium, Spain, Germany and Britain.

Japanese manga tradition has included genres of girls' comics that feature homosexual relationships since the 1970s, in the form of yaoi and yuri. These works are often extremely romantic and idealized, and include archetypal characters that often do not identify as gay or lesbian. Since the Japanese "gay boom" of the 1990s, a body of manga by queer creators aimed at LGBT customers has been established, including both bara manga for gay men and yuri aimed at lesbians, which often have more realistic and autobiographical themes. Pornographic manga also often includes sexualised depictions of lesbians and intersex people.

Portrayal of LGBT themes in comics is recognized by several notable awards, including the Gaylactic Spectrum Awards and GLAAD Media Awards for outstanding comic book and comic strip. The Lambda Literary Foundation, recognizing notable literature for LGBT themes with their "Lammys" awards since 1988, created a new category in 2014 for graphic works. Prism Comics, an organization formed in 2003 for promoting LGBTQ themes in comic books, has provided the "Queer Press Grant" for comic book creators since 2005.

Volpane (talk) 20:10, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

References

Who was the first gay couple in mainstream comics?

The article mentions the character Northstar from Marvel as the first depiction of a same-sex wedding in mainstream comics (I assume it includes all types of comics and not just superheroes). It also mentions the Wildstorm characters of Apollo and Midnighter as being a gay couple. It seems issue #29 of The Authority, from back in 2002, depicted the gay wedding of those two characters, making it so the Wildstorm characters had the first depiction of a gay wedding, not Northstar, preceding the later for about 10 years. As it remains, the information looks confusing. 177.47.49.23 (talk) 18:28, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Late reply, but I think I can clear the confusion. Although Midnighter and Apollo's wedding did happen earlier in 2002, the comic The Authority took place outside the main DC Universe and published by one of DC's imprints. Astonishing X-Men on the other hand was published directly by Marvel, set in their main universe, and the comic itself was a mainstream title. --PanagiotisZois (talk) 17:29, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

LGBT themes in comics

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Delisted. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:44, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I added a bunch of {{citation needed}} tags where there are unsourced statements, so now there's 22; some of those can be resolved by cutting material, but at least one cn tag has been there since 2010. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 23:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.