Talk:Kosaburo Eto

Cleaned up a bit, but this still has problems

I've tidied up a bit. I have reservations over the claim that he so directly inspired Mishima to commit suicide. I don't have full access to the source, but it seems to be one sentence in a long lecture. The references aren't exactly the most RS in the world; there's also a lot of 2chan noise about this figure, so extreme-right myth-making may be a problem.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:35, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

There's also the issue of how you translate 新右翼 - shin uyoku, which is literally "new right", but in Japanese refers to (ultra) nationalists, not economic liberalism/social conservatism a la Thatcherism.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I replaced the New Right with the patriots (Uyoku dantai) according to your advice.I am thanks for your contribution on Wiki.--Watson system (talk) 22:47, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks - the link to uyoku dantai was a good one. I replaced "patriot" because it's not a neutral word per WP:PEACOCK. Your new version about young people really needs sourcing from somewhere. News reports? Histories? Without sourcing it can't stay in the article. I'm having difficulty finding much reliable sourcing on Eto - it would be great if you can produce some.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 06:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

A picture would be cool

Do you know who owns the copyright to this picture? It would be good if we could put it into the article.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:00, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh sorry, As the link can be accessed from my electronic environment. please upload an appropriate picture.--Watson system (talk) 07:30, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

You can't see the picture? It's the one that's also on the kakuseisho image. We can't upload it unless we have permission from the copyright holder. Do you know where the picture comes from? VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 07:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I can't see that, but please upload Kosaburo Eto's picture. --Watson system (talk) 07:43, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I can't upload it without copyright information. Wikipedia only publishes images which are free or where we are given permission by the owner. Otherwise it would be illegal.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:58, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Note 『覚醒書』

I made a rough translation for Kakuseisho, please someone arrange verbs and object, and add it in Article.--Watson system (talk) 04:28, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

覚醒書
Kakuseisho (Poem of warning statement)
混沌たる世界、暗雲立籠む皇国。自然科学におかされ地獄道に落ちし民族。
Chaotic world…, dark clouds were over the Imperial country. Decayed nation was deceived by blind faith for the national science.
これを救う道、一事に極む。これ大自然に沿いし無私の心なり。
The path to salvation is only one. That is the selflessness which follows the national law.
無私の心、真我に通ず。
The selfless humanitarianism is the true atman.
真我集へば破るる事なし。
If many true atamans gather together, nothing beat down them.
国の大事、すべて無私より始まる。
The importance of state, began from self-denial.
ここに気付き行えばあとは康し。
If you notice it, you should do everything without tears.
一皇万民、天皇の許に真我が集う時、皇国毅然として興る。
If the citizens of the state gather under the Emperor, the empire should be founded.
皇子皇民、一丸となり熱鉄玉を呑む勢いにて行えば世界万民を救う道をなすこと難くなし。
If Mikado and nation gather and endeavor, they save all people of the world.
我、神命により不生不滅の生を得む。ここに肉体を放棄し永遠の生命を得む。
I get power to confer immortality, I abandoned my physical body, and get eternal life.
我「建国の日」に魂魄となりて、民族の危機にあたるものなり。
In the national Foundation Day, I become psyche and save the nation.
昭和四十四年二月十一日
11th April 1969
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Watson system (talk • contribs) 04:26, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be inappropriate to include the whole text. We could summarise the contents. Is there any reliably sourced commentary on this text?VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 13:57, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

See [1]. But it is written in Japanese.--Watson system (talk) 14:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't look like a reliable source. It's just people writing on a website. We need books published by serious publishers, or articles in peer-reviewed academic journals.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:27, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Kosaburo was not famous scholar, or artist, or auteur…etc. He is a obscurity. Hence his writings is still not published. But his bravery behavior earns full respect from many people all over Japan. Thus Yukio Mishima, great literary figure, wrote him in one's essay. --Watson system (talk) 14:47, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

That's the problem. We have to wait until there are more proper publications about him. We only take from what's already published, not from what we think should be published, or from what can be found from non-reviewed website material. So we can use Mishima and Uyoku Jiten for commentary on Eto's life, but not that website. But surely there are newspaper articles from the time when he killed himself?VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 15:02, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I want work out your standpoint on various issues. Are you in doubt about Kosaburo's suicide itself, or search for source of Kakuseisho? The former is incontrovertible fact but the latter is as above.--Watson system (talk) 22:17, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not in doubt about the basic information - that appears to be well-sourced. But comments about his impact on Japanese society or on a part of Japanese society do not have proper sources. We don't include material in Wikipedia just because you or I (or, for example, a blogger) think it is true. We include material that has been covered in reliable sources. As for the text, because Eto is, as you say, an obscure figure (I would say that he only just passes our threshold for having an article), publishing the whole letter seems unnecessary. Why is the letter important? Who has written directly about the contents of the letter? If we don't have information about this, I don't think we should include it.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 08:03, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh I see your understand for basic information about Kosaburo. Why I asked you such an interrogation is that I want make sure common apprehension about Kosaburo between you and me.

1. Kosaburo was not well-known in public.

2. Kosaburo was a man of courage.

3. His Kakuseisho was probably not published.

3. Yukio Mishima knows him, and deeply moved by his courage and his high integrity, and notes him in his work.

For above it, do you agree? --Watson system (talk) 10:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

As a wikipedia editor, this is how I see it:

1. Because of the lack of sources, this is probably true, although we can't say it in the article.

2. We would never, on Wikipedia, say that "Person X is a man of courage". We could say "Person X was widely thought of as a man of courage" - with references either to several reliable sources calling him courageous, or a reliable source that reports that many people called him courageous. But we need sources for that, and I haven't seen any for Eto. Therefore, even if it's true that he was courageous, we can't include that in the article.

3. Probably true, as per answer 1.

4. All we have on Mishima is one sentence in his lectures. We cannot make any deductions from that one sentence, we can only report that sentence. Making deductions about what Mishima intended is original research (seeWP:OR).

I don't know if this is the first time for you to edit wikipedia, but it's important to understand we can only include information and opinions that have been published in proper places. Even if we really believe something to be true, if we cannot produce published information to support it, we cannot include it in the encyclopedia. Without this rule, people could add all kinds of false and invented information to the encyclopedia.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 11:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I know you're right, but in many Websites exactly the same contents are written, for example [2][3][4][5]…etc. Do you think all documents could be counterfeit documents?--Watson system (talk) 11:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not saying the text is wrong, although a stricter editor than me would argue that we cannot confirm that the text of the kakuseisho is correct in reliable sources - and they would have a very good case. My point is different: to include the whole text of the kakuseisho, when there is no evidence that this kakuseisho has been analysed at all by scholars, is inappropriate. It makes the page into a kind of propaganda memorial, which is not what Wikipedia is for (see WP:UNDUE). We have a link to the text of the Kakuseisho, and I think that's enough.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 14:01, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

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