Talk:Korczak Ziolkowski

Wifes

Waldemar Łysiak, who talked with Korczak Ziółkowski, in his book mentions that Korczak had two wifes: the first "speak Polish", was named Dorota Bewster (?) and left him together with his daughter "Ania". BTW, he also wrote that Korczak didn't speak Polish, but his home was "demonstratively Polish". Source "asfaltowy saloon" by Waldemar Łysiak. (szopen) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.254.130.180 (talk) 07:41, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

This is a chapter about monument of Crazy Horse and Korczak-Ziółkowski. Łysiak visited Korczak and talked with him (at least, according to the book). If you think some of this is worth for inclusion, go ahead, my English is too poor. Waldemar Łysiak "Asfaltowy Saloon" Warszawa 1986, 2nd edition ISBN 83-7021-005-8

All translation mine (szopen) page 60:

when he had 3 years, his parents died in tragic accidents when travelling to new
york. He had no other family, he was in catholic orphanage. Then an irish boxer- 
half amateur pariah of the ring - took pity on him, and adopted him. This
boxer had one chance in a life, one great fight with a star, and he wanted
to cover his failure by raising his adopted son as master of all categories
in box. It was hard , and Korczak never forgot it.
-Terrible life. I was beaten, I work like a slave.. The old man survived
15 round with bare hands with Bob Fitzsimmons and he trained me with the
same pattern.

He couldn't bear this anymore and he escaped. He lived in many places, he was
learning. In 1925 he started working in Boston shipyard.

page 61:

Two year earlier (1934) he married with speaking fluent Polish (unlike him)
Dorota Brewster Comstock. They were both WORSHIPPING Polishness, their
house was demonstratively [?] Polish, this wasn't well taken.

page 63

-You were born in the same day, in which Wild Horse died, at 6th September.
You will carve, so white man will find out that red man have his heroes too.
You will carve. I've said.

Korczak first time in his life heard about Wild Horse. Until this moment,
he didn't care about indians. They will next to him, but like anonymous
tresspassers on the street - and peripherial street to that.

... page 65:

When Henry Standing Bear finished, Korczak Ziółkowski knew, that
he has new purpose in his life, the only and the last one: he will
change one the mountains born in this land into the WIld Horse statue.
He, the carver, knew better from others that four polished faces created
by Borglum and which only lacked elegant hats, were strangers in this mountains,
but it will be different with WIld Horse. This mountains belonged to Sioux,
this were HIS mountains, which they deprived him of. Now -- to rise
him above this mountains, like an eagle, would mean: to give this mountains
back to him. Korczak knew, that Wild Horse would not be artifact here,
he won't be addition to the mountains, but it will be part of the nature,
like a tree which grows in its own land. He said:
- Those four from Mount Rushmore is only part of American truth. It is
important, that another mountain will remind the America about the rest.

page 67:

Amongst those who doubted was his wife, Dorota, who didn't want to be lifetime
slave of Black Hills and when she couldn't convince him, she left in 1949,
with their daughter, Ania. He didn't collapse, a year later he married Mrs
Ruth C. Rose. He said to her: "Mountains is first, then the children, then you."
She accepted this priority list and she became more than the queen of this
world around Mount Thunderhead - she became a manager, the axis of this whole
machinery. (..) He calls her "mommy" and obeys her. She doesn't talk much,
she is almost not smiling, almost no one gets her sympathy. She's not
affraid of mountains and any kind of life, cloudy face, half Scottish-half
German, with face eaten by births, but with eyes full of determination. She
has something from the granite of Mount Thunderhead. She looks at as coldly, but
this is not cold that throws away, but cold which awakes trust. He, as if
affraid that her silence will be taken for brusqueness, tries to explain her
mountain-like nature -- unnecessarily.

...

He is not only known carver of the largest statue of the world. He
is also known defender of indians. When he talks about them, his voice
is trembling with tenderness:
- There are almost no pure-blood indians. This is dying race, isn't that
 terrible? Have you ever met pure-blood indian? There is no better man
under the sun, no more noble and carrying more truth. I am with them
and that's why I will give them this statue. I gave my word. I am an
exception, because whites only promise, as they used to do, and they
never keep their promise, but i will do! There, on Rushmore, next
to the four presidents, beautiful words are carved, spoken by presidents
to the nation -- but there are other words, which those presidents also
said: about indians, words, which were justification for the extermination.
So I will carve the words about the harm and about the fight of these people,
next to the statue of WIld Horse, on my mountain, so these words could
discuss with those other words, and so everyone could read these and those and
choose!

It's good idea, because after all: democracy is a dialogue.
I tell him that WIld Horse was a hero of my childhood, and he (i don't know
whether he heard me at all) whispers:
- This is Polish monument, you hear me? I tell that to everyone; this
is a Polish monument. Pole is carving the Indian. These are twin nations.
Both fought for so long for their freedom. Each day, when I work there, I think
about our history, our partitions, and I know that this is a double symbol.

... page 68

He has enemies along those pathological racists, who can't bear that he loved
indians, and that he creates them the most majestic monument in earth.
Those are saying "devastator of the mountains", "indian lover", "slave
of the reds". In one night in 1970 they came from Custer and they broke his
statues, they break a nose to Paderewski. He recognized few, he make a trial.
Now they are threatening that they will shot him like a dog. So he sleeps
with a gun, but he won't stop. Democracy is a dialogue, isn't it? But with
some sons of the b*s the dialogue must be continued with a help of a gun.

...

(And the most ironic, taken the later controversy amongst the Sioux)
Once, he wanted to make a statue of Pulaski in Connecticut. For free.
from love to Poland. But dear American Poles had not allowed him, because
they were as usual fighting amongst themselves as always in our history
(and because of that history is like it is). Later they were giving him
150 thousand of dollars, but he didn't want to talk with them anymore.
They didn't want Pulaski, so he started Wild Horse. Also Polish monument,
but kind of those, in which his countryman can't disturb him. The Sioux, when
they have common goal, do not fight amongst themselves and this is this
little precious difference between twin nations which suits him the best.

Regarding his first wife.

I am a family history buff and my research leads me to believe she was Dorothy Brewster Comstock, born 12 May 1898 in New York City. (From passport applications by her mother and father.)

The 1940 census for West Hartford, Hartford, Connecticut, SD: 1; ED: 2-220; page 26-B; lines 41 & 42 show Dorothy as 'Wife' and Bertha T Comstock, widow, as 'Mother-in-law'. Korczak's entry is on page 26-A, line 40. No children listed, so Ania must have been born after 1 Apr 1940. The Hartford City directories for 1936, 1939, 1940, 1942 all show both Korczak & Dorothy at 216 Sedgwick rd, West Hartford. Dorothy was a music teacher (Directories and Census sheet.)

Dorothy's father was Seth Cook Comstock, born 30 Nov 1871, New London, Connecticut - died 27 Mar 1906, New York (CT?) (Find A Grave Memorial: 32256854, passport applications.) a doctor and author. Seth Comstock's parents were both born in CT also.

Dorothy's mother Bertha Treadwell Porter, was born 13 Dec 1871 in Jersey City, New Jersey (Passport application). Death unknown, but may have been living in Rapid City, South Dakota (Rapid City Directory) in 1954, 1957 and 1960. Bertha's father was born in CT, her mother Mary Treadwell, in NY.

With that pedigree Dorothy does not sound like she was of Polish descent to me.

Tom — Preceding unsigned comment added by TomVote (talk • contribs) 21:19, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

pronunciation

How should Mr. Ziolkowski's name be pronounced? should it be clearly Polish (did HE speak Polish; as an orphan - probably not?) Can someone offer any explanation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.2.100.117 (talk) 23:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

His name is pronounced "Core-Chuck" "Jewel-cuff-ski". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.176.191.67 (talk) 22:15, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

"Bibliography"

This is a non-standard reference style and is unnecessarily long. 170.201.180.137 (talk) 22:37, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Is there a reason this article uses Polish diacritics? The man's grave doesn't http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=9472300&PIpi=22595956 and his wife didn't sign her name that way http://www.icollector.com/images/1593/20039/20039_0558_1_lg.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.147.136.147 (talk) 11:38, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Korczak Ziolkowski. Favonian (talk) 14:28, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

---

Korczak Ziółkowski → Korczak Ziolkowski – Ziolkowski was American and his name is spelled without Polish diacritics in the United States. His own grave doesn't use diacritics, neither does the CHM wbsite. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 11:15, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support On Google Books, there are 1,330 post-1980 "English"-language results for "Korczak Ziolkowski", compared to 8 for "Korczak Ziółkowski" -- and only one of these examples is actually in English. The New York Times, Britannica, and Columbia all give his name without diacritics. Kauffner (talk) 12:53, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Deghosting reduces the number of results to 377 books (from 1,330). This seems to the maximum that Google Books will count to, so the real number is presumably higher. But even 377 to 1 is a decisive margin. Kauffner (talk) 14:10, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. His grave doesn't show how Ziółkowski is spelled. Google Books is not the best source for diacritics, but it does appear that English sources do not use diacritics. Polish do ([1], [2]), including one Polish encyclopedia where he was mentioned. But so far I cannot find valid rationales for oppose; particularly as he was born in the USA and was a US, not Polish, citizen. I'll just ask that the Polish rendering of his name is preserved in the article after the move. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:02, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support in this particular case I don't see much reason to keep the diacritics as he was born and bred in US, though of Polish ethnicity and proud of his Polish heritage. This case is quite different than that of, say, Kazimierz Pułaski, who was born, lived and fought in Poland till finally ending up in US later in life. Wish people would show consideration both ways.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:44, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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