Talk:Wollersheim Winery

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Name change proposal

This place is best known by Wollersheim, any objections to changing it to its current name? Nswix (talk) 17:10, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved per WP:COMMONNAME and slight consensus in this slow debate, which doesn't seem to be controversial anyway. No objection to creating two separate articles on independently notable topics with appropriate hatnotes in each. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:10, 15 June 2022 (UTC) ~Anachronist (talk) 20:10, 15 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kehl Winery → Wollersheim Winery – better known by current name Nswix (talk) 17:15, 22 April 2022 (UTC) Nswix (talk) 17:15, 22 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 18:34, 29 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. 晚安 (トークページ) 15:55, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Wollersheim Winery per WP:COMMONNAME. It was known as Kehl Winery from 1867 to 1899 (22 years but over 100 years ago). It has been known as Wollersheim Winery since 1972 (50 years) [1]. The NRHP name should redirect. Royal broil 03:09, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Wisconsin has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 18:44, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The architecture and history of the place that was once called "Kehl Winery" might be considered notable, possibly (this is why it is on the National Register of Historic Places), but I do not see any indication that the company is notable. If this is an article on the place, I would tend to oppose the move, and if it is supposed to be on the company, evidence of significant coverage in reliable sources is needed here. Dekimasuよ! 04:45, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for that interesting take on this article and title, Dekimasu. You solved the seeming enigma as to how this article retained the historic name for so long after the name changed to the "WW". I suppose it could be said that the winery is still notable under any name, since whatever its name is, it remains a historic place. As you suggest, there is a need for reliable sources that support WW as the winery's common name. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 23:40, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - I added 2 RS - Wisconsin Historical Society and Milwaukee Journal Sentential. The newspaper is not local coverage. I don't see indication how the Kehl Winery itself was notable. It folded in the 1800s and the land returned to farming. The current owners have won national to international awards which are now cited in the article. Kehl just was the name that the Wollersheim family put on the NRHP application in the mid 1970s after owning the place for a few years. I content that article should use the current name of the facility, not necessarily be restricted to a historic name for the facility. Royal broil 03:36, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - I think you have changed the scope of the article, which has for ~~years~~ a year been in Category:Limestone buildings in the United States, not Category:Wineries of the United States. Note similarly that Hilgen and Wittenberg Woolen Mill, mentioned in this article as the location of Cedar Creek Winery, is an article on the historic mill and not the current businesses located there. Also, I think several of the anecdotes added verge on improper paraphrasing (the same could probably said of the Chicago Tribune article, which either relies on the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article or shows that both of them rely on the same third source). Care should be taken to be sure that the article does not become promotional and is written at a proper level of detail. Dekimasuよ! 03:58, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      - The building and its current owner / occupant are typically tied together in a single article for almost every NRHP article that I've read (with rare exceptions). I don't think that there is enough content to split and a split would likely end up in a merge if brought up at AFD in my humble opinion. I have no vested interest in either topic and am not in conflict of interest. I have no interest in promoting the owner/winery, just giving a basic content at an encyclopedic level. If you feel like the added content is too close of paraphrasing (or even borderline), I encourage you to please edit / address it now! Royal broil
Oppose. It appears that this historic place is deemed historic under the current title of this article, Kehl Winery. The periods given in this NRHP document are the historic dates and period for the Kehl Winery. The fact that it is a historic place seems to be its main claim for notability. Add all that to the fact that, as mentioned above, the place has had a new name (the proposed title) for 50 years, and yet this article began under the "Kehl" name in July of last year, which should give us pause long enough to ask, "Why didn't the article's creator just go ahead and name it "Wollersheim Winery" in the first place? Seems to be very good reason to continue with the historic title, otherwise under a different title, its time on Wikipedia might be cut short. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 16:08, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Split; or if it doesn't work, support The Wollersheim Winery's current operations could be independently notable to the historic Kehl Winery building it occupies. Its grapevine water (need access to see the acknowledgement that they were studying Wollersheim's water) and terroir have been studied by non-American journals, and it is regularly toured by Costa Ricans. But if the split is unsatisfactory, I'd support a move per WP:NAMECHANGES, with the journals adding onto Royalbroil's evidence. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 16:49, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:NAMECHANGES. Going through paper articles on the winery, it was most commonly referred as the "old Kehl Winery" through the mid 1970s, had a transition period through about 1980, and has been primarily known as Wollersheim since. -- Dolotta (talk) 23:44, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.