Talk:Jūnihitoe

Possible changes to the entry

In the paragraph before the last (the one describing the story of the man who wanted to keep his lady from escaping him by making her wear the robes), I think a good point to mention would be that this is not just one specific case, but a broad international tradition, to restrict women through the use of their clothing.

I will make the appropriate change. If any one has any reservations, feel free to discuss them. Silentium 09:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but where else have you heard of such cases? And this dress was not designed to restrict women, therefore this information would be purely speculative unless there really was a general pattern. This is not verified though. Gryffindor 12:14, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It's sufficient enough to look at world history. Anything from the Burka, to these kimonos; corsets and skirts, jewelry (which is heavy) and lotus feet in china (just to name a few off the top of my head) - all clothes which restrict movement and were used as yet another mean to control women. Silentium 09:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Hm, I think you need to post your thoughts in a more general forum about women's clothes and dress, because a burka has nothing to do with a kimono. Nobody forces anyone to wear a kimono, I know women who like skirts and don't feel restricted by them. The junihitoe was not designed to restrict women in their movement. There are many men's clothings as well that were very impractical but it was just the fashion at that time. Gryffindor 17:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I think I'll go one by one here:

"I think you need to post your thoughts in a more general forum about women's clothes and dress"

I concur, and I indeed plan to do this.

"a burka has nothing to do with a kimono"

Rather, it does. You asked for a pattern, and I gave you one. The connection between them is that they are both traditional restictive women's clothing.

"Nobody forces anyone to wear a kimono"

I am not all that lored in Japanese culture, and therefore I don't know whether or not women were punished for not wearing them. However - I doubt that women were allowed to wear men's clothing, and am rather sure that even if there wasn't a punishment in law, severe social sanctions were used on a woman who wanted to do such a thing. Honestly, I don't think anyone would willingly wear a 20kg outfit daily, or even at all, without some heavy social pressure.

"I know women who like skirts and don't feel restricted by them."

Indeed, I am one of them. However, it is completely clear to anyone who has ever worn a skirt (and here I am speaking only of long ones) that movement is more difficult wearing them than wearing pants. Also - the fact that many women do it doesn't mean it's not oppressive. Consesuality has always been one of the main attributes of the oppression towards women.

"There are many men's clothings as well that were very impractical but it was just the fashion at that time."

In any case, even if men's clothes were restrictive, they were always less so than women's.

Silentium 08:26, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are not familiar with the workings of japanese dress and kimono. Where does it say that a kimono weighs 20 kg? I can only think of the wedding kimono's, and that's normally only worn once. There are plenty of other kimonos which are extremely light and are worn in the summer, and are gladly worn by men and women, boys and girls alike. The junihitoe was a court dress, it wasn't meant to be practical but aesthetic, similar to those baroque dresses in Versailles. same applies to court dress for men. Do you think I feel comfortable wearing a suit and a tie all day at work, especially in the summer? And equalising the burka with a kimono is like comparing apples to pears. They are two completely different things. I am not saying that you might have a point, however you are comparing things here which have nothing to do with each other. A chador can be seen as a sign of oppression to restrict women, however some women also say that they feel more free in a veil because they can move around without feeling bothered and have the protection of anonymity. so who's right? of course nobody should be forced to do anything. But that's a completely different issue and I will not discuss it here on this talk page. I think neither you or me are in a position to judge what people should wear. This is an encyclopedia, not a chat forum on what we think constitutes a restriction on women (or men), since this is relative and a cultural viewpoint. We are obliged on Wikipedia to stay neutral. You are welcome to create an article specifically about such issues as restrictions on women (in dress) of course if you wish. Gryffindor 12:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not talking about kimonos in general, but about this specific kind (Junihitoe). I think that what I wrote is neutral and verifiable enough. Feel free to tag it disputed, though. Silentium 14:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

You were not? I was getting the impression based on your comparison to kimonos and burkas. I am afraid your contribution is purely based on speculation, not on fact. I would like to see the academic source (books, internet sources, etc...) that prooves your point that there was a systematic scheme to limit women in their movement through the junihitoe. also your sentence "This is one of many examples of an almost-worldwide tradition to keep women immobilized through use of their clothes." [1] baffles me. which world-wide tradition are you referring to? which other examples are there of a system to keep them immobilised through clothes? Gryffindor 18:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the current text is much too presumptuous. Something like "In this way the jūnihitoe may have functioned similarly to elaborate women's clothes in other parts of the world, for example the so-and-so of x country" would be acceptable, I think, but baldly stating the existence of an "almost world-wide tradition" smacks of original research to me, and unsubstantiated research at that. Couch it in more tentative language or find a published work on the subject that you can cite and attribute the opinion to. DopefishJustin 19:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Where is support for the "one guy" who did this to keep his woman? And do you realize that this kind of dress was limited to a small sliver of Japanese society? I agree with others. Unless you can produce some support for these statements, these all sound like pure unsupported speculation.-Jefu 19:36, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to say reading this article that unless a verifiable reference is made to a text article that states clearly that the clothing was designed by men to keep his lady under control it should be deleted. Other explanations could equally be made up, but the key point is that statements in an encyclopedia should be able to be backed up with evidence, or in the case of wikipedia evidence should be given when challenged. Personally without some form of reference to an accepted text I would vote for this sentence to be deleted compelely. The article could state that movement in such a robe was very difficult and is a good example of a case where the fashion for high ranking woman has become unduly restrictive. Nashikawa 21:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

A junihitoe was a specific kind of court dress. There were analogous types of dress for men. To the best of my knowledge, the junihitoe was more about fashion and practicality than restricting the wearer. Fashion-wise, the colours and textures of the layers worn were an indication of the taste of the wearer. I believe in Genji the narrator talks about the sublime fashion sense of a woman who dared to wear a plum-coloured kimono at a particular time of year, and so on. Practicality-wise, the junihitoe provided warmth in a time when houses were made (nearly) of paper and there was very little in the way of heating available. I've never encountered any indication that the junihitoe in particular, or kimonos in general--which, it must be noted, were worn by men and children of both sexes as well as women--served as any purpose beyond keeping the wearer warm and clothed. Exploding Boy 21:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I concur with your comments. The part of trying to control women through clothes will be deleted from the article. Gryffindor 00:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I accept the comments on verifiability. I will change it into something more similar to what Nashikawa suggested. Silentium 08:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

That comment is also based on speculation. "This is a good example of a case where the fashion for high ranking women has become unduly restrictive" is relative. Some might have found it restrictive, and others actually very practical, as commented by Exploding Boy. Silentium please refer to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view if you have any further doubts. Gryffindor 14:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that the link to the band of the same name is innacurate, according to the linked article. The band is actually named "12. Hitoe" (as indicated by the link), though they did make an album named Junhitoe.

Having stumbled back on this page some 2 years on, I'd like to add that garments specifically designed to be restrictive did exist in Japan, but the only one I know of is the naga-bakama, which was worn by men. Exploding Boy (talk) 17:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Kanji spelling

I think that there is a kind of mistake in the kanji.

• 衣's on'yumi can be "e" but 単's kun'yomi is "hitoe" and no "hito" variation is specified.
• The actual 十二単衣 doesn't appear a single time on the Japanese jûnihitoe page.　My IME doesn't propose it as kanjis for じゅうにひとえ and only converts it to 十二単.

But there is some occurrence on a Google search so it might be a rare but acceptable variation.

• 十二単衣: 17 500 results
• 十二単: 175 000 results

The mistake could have been missing to notice the standard before the rarer variation.

Lacrymocéphale 23:25, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

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