Talk:Jung Myung-seok

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MrTownCar (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. This user has been banned and may therefore be reverted on sight. (COI declared on AN/I at [1])
Macauthor (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. This user has been banned and may therefore be reverted on sight. (COI declared on AN/I at [2])

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Jung Myung Seok was copied or moved into Providence (religious movement) with this edit on 02:43, 16 January 2014. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

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Moved discussion: JMS follow up

Moved from User talk:Sam Sailor

– Thread moved here as requested. --Sam Sailor ^Sing 08:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can you kindly tell me the name of the "well known research institute" in citations 3 and 4 please? feel free to post answer on JMS talk page. MrTownCar (talk) 01:39, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Citations 3 and 4 are

이대복 (2000). 이단종합연구 (in Korean). 기독교이단문제연구소. p. 647. Retrieved 2013-11-09. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help), and
심창섭 (1997). 기독교의이단들. 대한예수교장로회총회. p. 274. ISBN 978-89-88327-28-9. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)

and are currently only used to reference the birth date 17 February 1945. The same DOB is given on the corresponding articles in German, Japanese, and Korean.

Citation no. 3 is published by 기독교이단문제연구소 Christian Heresy Institute, www.hdjongkyo.co.kr, a quote "leading Korean cultic studies center researching Christian cults and helping their victims", and

citation no. 4 is published by 대한예수교장로회총회, General Assembly for the Presbyterian Church Korea, www.gapck.org.

Sam Sailor ^Sing 08:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Sam Sailor: I clicked the link in citation 3. on the opening page is about 20 links including JMScult.com. Can you tell me whether this is considered a cult or are they being endorsed by hdjongkyo.co.kr as a support group? My take: it is being portrayed as ?? I can't tell after reading the other links. Two of them were blog spots. Can you tell me the relation between jmscult.com and JMS?MrTownCar (talk) 03:10, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The link in citation 3 is to Google Books[3] and does not mention JMScult.com. JMScult has been discussed before on this talk page, and you consider it "pure propaganda"^[Diff] and prefer a version sourced by a member of Providence,^[Diff] which is fully understandable since you are yourself a member of Providence.^[Diff] I would treat direct quotes from JMScult.com with the same caution as I would with quotes from say ProvidenceTrial.com. Sam Sailor ^Sing 08:47, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

the link I was referring to was the website hdjongkyo in my question above not google books.MrTownCar (talk) 15:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer a version of the article that has sources from multiple points of view and reads like an encyclopedia not a tabloid as it written now with unproven sensational claims which is what you have reverted it to. Glad we agree that self proclaimed sources are not acceptable.MrTownCar (talk) 15:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you can find a single example of an "unproven sensational claim" in this article we'd be happy to look at it. Shii (tock) 15:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

it would be kind if you would let the person answer to whom the question was asked and not answer for them. To answer your question Shii As of 2012, at least 10 women were still being kept for sexual exploitation by church leaders, according to Kim Jin-ho, former director of the cult and a representative of the organization No JMS (JMS 피해대책협의회). One former member who was a victim of Jung's sex crimes said that "there were over 1,000 women recruited for sexual exploitation, and even from prison he managed them, including minors." Given that one statement is made by antiJMS member and the other anonymously, they dont hold as much weight as the other material posted in this article and fall short of the encyclopaedic nature of wikipedia. I know we can do better here.MrTownCar (talk) 23:54, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

One more- South Korean media reported that Jung had claimed to have received a "special revelation" from God, and that many female members of his cult were ordered to undress for a "health check" and have sex with him to wipe off their sins. There was no need for the AP to quote South Korean media generically, they should have cited the media outlet by name. Again we can and should do better than that here. let us raise the level where the professionals fell short.MrTownCar (talk) 01:16, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(←) Okay, your first claim: "one statement is made by antiJMS member"... and former director of Providence! You quoted it yourself. I don't see a need to change that quote.

--->If I may unpack it a bit more... if Mr Kim left providence and voiced his opinion that is one thing, but he left Providence and is a representative of a group with an antijms agenda, in my opinion that is a conflict of interest/original research and therefore I felt not reliable.MrTownCar (talk) 06:36, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Second claim is debatable, you have a good point.

Third quote is vague but the AP is a reliable source and I think we can trust what they say about multiple media reports. Shii (tock)

The fact that an AP news story didn't explicitly identify its South Korean media sources does not necessarily mean the AP story is suspicious or otherwise unreliable. The writer (or an editor) might, for example, have felt there was no need to give the names of local media sources which few if any readers of the AP story would be familiar with anyway. A news story which doesn't identify a third-party media source is, in principle, no less (or more) of a "reliable source" than a news story which doesn't identify an individual whose comments it quotes or reports on. And it's not supposed to be our role as Wikipedians to "raise the level where the professionals fell short" — we are supposed to report what reliable sources say, even if some of us think the source should have done their job differently. — Rich wales (no relation to Jimbo) 05:01, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

-->In brief I wasnt suggesting to throw away the whole article as there are other points and photos etc that are included in the source. However, as Shii pointed out above, the quote is vague and it hit me like a freight train as I reread the quote that it can be interpreted in more than one way. I believe the way AP intended to make the sentence was to split the ideas that "South korean media reports that Mr Jung claimed to have a special revelation from God " and " south korea media reports that many female members were order to undress......" I didnt want the quote to be construed as one flowing idea which is how I read it at first.MrTownCar (talk) 06:36, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

-->Based on the above conversation can we agree that the quote about the 1,000 women can be removed and for the AP quote can we insert the Phrase "south korean media" after the word 'and' to emphasize that it is two distinct ideas or may be just put the word 'and' in bold in the article?MrTownCar (talk) 06:36, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I still havn't seen anyone address why these edits were reverted twice by Sam Sailor. As I explained before the source has nothing to do with ProvidenceTrail.com which is considered POV so I'm going to restore them. I'm planning to restore it to at least the version restored by user:Epicgenius:Epicgenius. Macauthor (talk) 15:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Quick note of feedback

Editors of this article may be interested in this comment Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Jung Myung Seok (permanent link [4]). Nil Einne (talk) 02:18, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2014_January_3 Richard Gill (talk) 20:59, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling of his name

The article calls this guy "Jung Myung Seok". The 8 episode Netflix series "In the Name of God: A Holy Betrayal" https://www.netflix.com/title/81493078 calls him "Jeong Myeong-seok" in the three episodes (1, 2 and 3) devoted to him and his church. Which is more correct? Richard Gill (talk) 20:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some of his own (or his churches’) websites write his family name “Jeong”. Perhaps the article should mention the alternative spelling. Richard Gill (talk) 17:47, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

New sentence

He was recently sentenced to 23 years. Should this be updated? https://en.yna.co.kr/view/AEN20231222004400315 100.8.127.170 (talk) 20:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]