Talk:2024 Ju County attack

Merging the articles

Okay so in merging both articles, a few things remain to be discussed. (I'm writing this here because it's the original article, albeit the worse. Feel free to move the discussion elsewhere if that's better.) I understand that while Ju County attack is better written than this, this article is the original and was created 9 days before Ju County attack. I'm not sure which article it is to keep, but I don't mind it either way and I'll contribute to improving the newly merged article regardless.

1. Which article to be merged into which: see above
2. Title of the newly merged article: In my opinion both articles are quite poorly titled. As per this list, an appropriate title for the merged article could be 2024 Ju County attack, 2024 Ju County massacre, Ju County attack, or Ju County massacre. I don't think writing Zhaike village is the best option (not to mention I doubt the "v" should be capitalized) as it is a village unknown to the majority of the population, locally, nationally, and internationally.
3. Inconsistency in sources: as User:PARAKANYAA has very accurately pointed out on Feb 19, 2024 above, this article is difficult to write in the sense that there are no readily available sources that can accurately guarantee the accuracy of the article. It's made even worse that 5 different sources will write 5 completely difference interpretations of the same incident, and it makes it highly difficult to abide by WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH, and to an extent WP:5P1. Yet, this is one of the most outrageous acts of killing of the 1st quarter of 2024 worldwide and I cannot allow myself to skip past this incident just because the Chinese government wants the world to forget about it.

Anyway, a massive "thank you" to all users (@PARAKANYAA, @GoatLord234, @Cypp0847, everyone else) who has involved themselves into this. I promise to fully cooperate regardless of the outcome of the discussion and I will copy the remains of this article to User:Josethewikier/Zhaike Village massacre, and you're welcome to edit either article. Josethewikier (talk) 20:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, if it's any consolation there will probably be clearer sources about this someday. Happened with the Tian Mingjian incident as well - China's protocol for dealing with these incidents is to deny they happened and censor as much as they can as long as they can and then sort of admitting to it eventually. They do this with basically every case they can, and with particularly egregious ones the truth does usually come out eventually.

I'd vote just adding 2024 to the Ju County attack title. "massacre" titles are vague and bad and I oppose them on principle - what is a "massacre"? It can be either a state-sponsored or lone wolf killing, or even metaphorical, you can't tell from the title, so it is too vague unless it is the clear common name. PARAKANYAA (talk) 20:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Also this article was the first created, so the other one should be merged into this one - though the content of that one is largely superior. PARAKANYAA (talk) 20:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I guessed so too. Thanks a lot! Josethewikier (talk) 20:42, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

May I express reservation on the merge (although one must admit the bias due to the creation of the newer article). I am not sure if WP:MERGE has suggested keeping the recently created article, but considering that

• a similar guideline WP:A10 provides that a duplicate article may be re-considered if it improves on the information (...any recently created article... that duplicates an existing English Wikipedia article, and that does not expand upon, detail or improve information within any existing article(s) on the subject);
• "Zhaike Village massacre" seems to be not an appropriate article title; and
• All information have been copied to the newer article.

Therefore it seems rational to turn this page into a Redirect page instead? ~~ J. Dann 00:28, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I do understand your perspective as the creator of that article. Personally, I wouldn't mind it either way but I agree with you that "Zhaike Village massacre" seems to be not an appropriate article title, and that regardless one of the two has to redirect to the other at the end of this discussion. I believe that both ways has its rationality, but I recognize too that your suggestion will be less work to be done and is ultimately better from the perspective of practicality and simplicity. Josethewikier (talk) 00:45, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

We cannot have two articles on the same topic. The other one was first, no? The title needs to be changed either way so the title of either target page is irrelevant. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:26, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Zhaike Village massacre was created before Ju County attack. I really don't care one bit which one redirects to which, although the latter article is quite obviously superior so if I had to vote as a third person, I'd vote for this to be redirected to that, solely because that's simpler and adequately credits User:Cypp0847 for their hard work into the latter article. Josethewikier (talk) 04:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough I guess. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Unless @GoatLord234 and/or anyone else objects to such a merge, I think now's a better time than any to proceed with such a merge (this was supposed to be a thing of 2 months ago). The title of the newly merged article could be discussed (Ju County attack will do for the time-being, but 2024 Ju County attack may be better as I'm not sure if this article qualifies for WP:NOYEAR.) Regardless, the merger is long-delayed and I wish too that it's resolved as soon as possible. Josethewikier (talk) 22:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with a merge. I have been making edits to the newer article, and I think a merge would be great, but I do feel the name should be changed to something a little more descriptive, even if it's just adding "2024" to the title. GoatLord234 (talk) 00:24, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

That's amazing to hear. Looking at WP:NCE and specifically WP:NCWWW, the title should contain when, where, and what descriptors. I'll try my best to list out all potential possibilities.

• when: 2024
  • I don't think there are alternatives (February 2024 would be overly precise) but it's worth a discussion too whether to include the year or not
• where: Ju County, Zhaike Village
  • Ju County: a bigger area with a population of ~1.16 million
    • It's far more notable
    • I have a mild preference for this
  • Zhaike Village: a more precise and small area with a smaller population (the township it's in (Luohe) has a population of ~45,000 according to Baidu Baike)
    • It's an extremely obscure village and most sources do not refer to the incident as such, but it is more precise
• what: attack, massacre, killings, (mass) murder, incident, shootings, stabbings, anything else I haven't thought of
  • I don't think the latter two are the best as neither are particularly precise (it's both a stabbing and shooting from what I've seen)
  • I really don't have a preference for any of the remaining descriptors; maybe attack is the most accurate here, but I realize that arguments can be made for each of the others, and I think the first priority now is to merge the articles (edited to add: maybe a plural noun (attacks) is better considering it happened twice (once during CNY eve and once during midday of CNY day 1))

I hope that was a readable list (or at least somewhat readable; I'm quite a slow-learner with tech-related stuff) and I once again convey my appreciation for all users concerned for their/your contributions. Josethewikier (talk) 01:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 22 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Responses have either rejected the term "Massacre" or been unable to agree on an exact title using the word "Massacre" - future RM's should address whether that verbiage is appropriate and hopefully find an agreeable title. (closed by non-admin page mover) ASUKITE 16:03, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

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2024 Ju County attack → 2024 Ju County massacre – I've just renamed this article, adding the year (2024) into the start of the article, but I'm not sure if it's the best. I personally see how this could be a massacre rather than merely an attack considering how attacks with fewer casualties were referred to a "massacre" (examples: Columbine High School massacre and Munich massacre). Really what is a massacre as per common name isn't very stringently defined, and I'd like to start a discussion as to whether this constitutes as a massacre or not, and which specific noun should be used as this article's title. Josethewikier (talk) 14:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting.  ASUKITE 15:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support Zhaike massacre. No reason to use specifically the third level administrative division. It is not the lowest one, and it's not like Ju County is more familiar to most English-speaking readers than Zhaike. Super Ψ Dro 11:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Massacre titles are bad unless they are the clear common name, as it is with Munich and Columbine. A massacre can be metaphorical, it can be a state killing - attack implies one person IMO. The title is too vague, with a "massacre" title I would go into this article assuming it was a state killing. No source has called it massacre. How many deaths make a massacre? Who knows. The title is OR in any case where it is not the common name. PARAKANYAA (talk) 05:49, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Support Zhaike Village massacre. I agree with Para's previous statement, nobody outside of China really knows what Ju County is as much as Zhaike, however, it is a fairly large area, so having the name of the specific village helps narrow it down a lot. "Massacre is a much better term than attack, as it utilized several weapons and attack types. The 2022 Nong Bua Lamphu massacre was renamed to this title, as it consisted of mass stabbing, vehicle ramming, and mass shooting attacks. In Zhaike, the perpetrator(s) used a bladed weapon and a firearm. Most articles about these subjects are usually titled as shooting(s), stabbing(s), bombing, arson, or vehicle attack, but attacks of several different types are usually titled either "attack" or "massacre". GoatLord234 (talk) 14:39, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Death, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject China, and WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography/Serial Killer task force have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 05:30, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Chinese reports on the event vary between "Zhaike Village", "Rizhao", or "Ju County", although Zhaike seems to prevail. Is it possible to rest on "2024 Shandong attack/massacre", as it is the clear common name on the wording of location? ~~ J. Dann 15:18, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting to clarify: so far we have 2024 Ju County massacre, Zhaike massacre, Zhaike Village massacre and possibly another variation or two, replies should clarify exactly which they favor to aid in finding a suitable close. ASUKITE 15:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. The word massacre, as it implies the killings are indiscriminate, random or senseless in nature. An attack on the other hand implies a deliberate or selective targeting of victims, which seems to be what happened here. I think the nature of the weapon(s) used is irrelevant to determining the manner of killing, although the attack weapons(s) could be used in an alternative description. Naming conventions for events support having "When", "Where" and "What" in the title of an article. Titles should also be reasonably precise, meaning the "Where" part of the title should be a smaller more specific locality rather than a larger one, provided this is consistent with the sources. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 03:44, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.