Talk:José Miguel de la Cueva, 14th Duke of Alburquerque

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WP:IRS revelant sources for spelling of name José María

I came across this article accidentally comparing title spellings for another modern (BLP) bio José María on en.wikipedia.org. I personally am not greatly fussed whether dead people's bio title (or text) names are anglicized, even less so for nobility where anglicization is common and has special naming criteria on en.wp. However it does seem that the relevant categories on this article such as Category:Spanish nobility show similar bio titles being spelled fully, and the sources may also spell the name fully. Musteen spells José, though looks like OCR has failed to pick up the accent on Maria. Musteen also spells Cádiz fully. Haythornthwaite's book isn't on GB, or Look Inside at Amazon, but another book by Haythornthwaite Corunna 1809: Sir John Moore's Fighting Retreat (Campaign) Osprey Publishing is and has José de Palafox y Melzi is spelled fully "José" so it would seem likely that Haythornthwaite's Penisular War Brassey's spells "José María" correctly. Unless Brassey's has a lower MOS than Osprey Publishing. León, José María García (2007), a reliable source for the spelling of a Spanish name En Torno a Las Cortes de Cádiz. Quorum Editores. naturally has José María. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:57, 16 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Jose Maria de la Cueva, 14th Duke of Albuquerque → José María de la Cueva, 14th Duke of Albuquerque – (i) "de" indicates a Spanish name, i.e. not "of", not an English exonym "Joseph-Mary of The Cave", minor Spanish officer, this is different from a proven and accepted de-accented royalty English exonym form like the emperor Napoleon, or John Calvin or Saint John of the Cross. (ii) "consistent with related titles" on en.wp José María is not anglicised, currently this article is the only "Jose Maria +" article among 100 plus redirects (appear in italics) redirecting to a "José María +" titled article. (iii) Per WP:IRS "best such sources" "sources reliable for the statement being made" after correcting for OCR errors; Musteen, Haythornthwaite, León (2007), all use José and María where required. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:51, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do not oppose the move, because the main source in the article uses the spelling you are proposing to use, and the guidance given to interpret WP:UE in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) is "a Google book search of books published in the last quarter-century or thereabouts, and a selection of other encyclopaedias, should all be examples of reliable sources"

However I do object to your selectively quoting IRS out of context. I think that you should produced evidence of usage in other encyclopaedias, and the book search you used to come to your conclusion, over what is common English usage, rather selectively quoting WP:IRS as a tautology to support you preconceived notions of what is "correct" (which amounts to: if it is not spelt the way Iio thinks it should be, it is not a reliable source). -- PBS (talk) 09:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also I think your other justifications are a nonsense. By the logic of your (i) "de" indicates a Spanish name, i.e. not "of", not an English exonym, if reliable English language use de, and a different spelling then the logic breaks down, and amounts to OR, we follow usage in reliable English language sources, we do not make up rules to justify spelling something the way it is not spelt in reliable English language sources. Similarly if all the other articles on Wikipedia used Jose Maria, then if the reliable English language sources, indicated that José María was correct then I doubt that you would be using "consistent with related titles", we follow usage in reliable sources we do not use "consistent with related titles" to justify ignoring usage in reliable sources. -- PBS (talk) 09:55, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

PBS, there is nothing new in the above so I will simply note that the fact that this appears to be the last mispelled Spanish bio title on en.wp indicates that "we" (real article space editors) think otherwise. Let others draw their own conclusions. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:24, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your words "'we' (real article space editors)" seem to imply that I am somehow do not edit article space and therefore my opinions are not relevant. This is insulting to all those editors who concentrate on other aspects of the Wikipedia project. FYI see who created this article. I would appreciate an apology. -- PBS (talk) 09:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would have to know who the "we" in the original comment was. But evidently WP:UE's edit-history is not as representative of en.wp as the 4 million article corpus of en.wp. I originally noticed this article because it was the only one misspelled, not because it was one of yours. It is out of deference to the fact that you started the article that an RM has been delayed until now. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support, per the usual arguments as in similar previous RMs regarding usage of diacritics in careful scholarly sources and especially in the headings of encyclopedia entries. Not an anglicized form, as noted by proposer. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 14:11, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support Correct move. But I'm also wary of the 'de'=Spanish name logic. SLawsonIII (talk) 21:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Alburquerque.

I wonder whether his name shouldn't be Alburquerque. Neopolem (talk) 06:56, 6 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it should be. Can someone change this to Alburquerque? Blairall (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]