Talk:John Hart (South Australian colonist)

Rename article?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: paged moved per discussion - changed Captain John Hart to DAB page. Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 02:44, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

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John Hart, Sr. → Captain John Hart — Relisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:31, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Captain John Hart had very strong connections with the Port Adelaide area, and his name continues to be associated with the iconic buildings that he constructed there. He is still referred to locally as "Captain John Hart", and I consider that this is a more appropriate title for the article, than "John Hart, Sr".

As earlier editors have made previous title changes, it seems that the renaming will have to be made by an Administrator, and so I will refer it for action.Bahudhara (talk) 08:37, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

A complicating factor is that there was a page for a fictional "Captain John Hart", which has now been redirected (see John Hart (disambiguation)) - but this shouldn't create much of a problem.Bahudhara (talk) 08:54, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - It is my understanding that honorifics and titles (such as Captain) should not normally be used in article titles in Wikipedia. Unfortunately, I can't find the reference to that. D O N D E groovily Talk to me 01:16, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Despite his retirement from the sea in 1848 and later involvement in business and politics, he continues to this day to be known as "Captain Hart", e.g. see Glanville Hall Function Centre. I have never seen any reference to him as "John Hart Senior", which is an invention by a previous Wikipedia editor. Bahudhara (talk) 08:04, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• How about John Hart (Australian politician)? Donde is right that we don't usually include such honorifics as "Captain" in article titles, though we could make an exception if he's very well known by that phrase. But if he's not well known as "Senior" then we shouldn't be using that either - we should just be disambiguating in the usual way.--Kotniski (talk) 13:18, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

One obvious problem with "John Hart (Australian politician" is that "Australia" did not exist at the time of his death in 1873. Both Captain Hart and later his son, also named John Hart, were politically active in the then-autonomous Province of South Australia. "Australia" did not come into existence until Federation on 1 January 1901. Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 03:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

So? Would people from South Australia not have called themselves Australian at that time? If not, then use "(South Australian politician)" instead. --Kotniski (talk) 10:56, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

As the various colonies were entirely independent of each other at the time, no, they would not have called themselves "Australians" - they would have regarded themselves as 'South Australians", "Tasmanians", "New South Welshmen", etc. The problem remains that both father and son had the same name, and were both South Australian politicians. Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 13:57, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

What son? Can't find any reference to him on Wikipedia - maybe he isn't notable, or in any case much less notable than the father.--Kotniski (talk) 14:14, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

As to notability, there is already at least one reference to the son in Wikipedia - he was the first president of the Port Adelaide Football Club in 1870, with the club's first return match being played at Buck's Flat in the grounds of the family estate, Glanville Hall (see page 386, John Couper-Smartt & Christine Courtney: Port Adelaide - Tales from a "Commodious Harbour", Friends of the South Australian Maritime Museum Inc, Port Adelaide, 2003). As I don't have any interest in sport, I'll leave it to the club's historians to create a separate article (or there may already be references in other articles, as the origins of Australian Rules Football have been controversial, I believe). The article cited does refer to the son as "John Hart jnr", but I have never seen any reference to the father as "John Hart senior" - it's generally "Captain Hart", or just "John Hart". Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 07:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

OK so even if the son is notable (for something sport-related), he doesn't seem to have been notable as a politician. So, as far as I can see, there are no remaining objections to John Hart (South Australian politician) becoming the title of this article.--Kotniski (talk) 08:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

After delving into this a little deeper, I now think that even "John Hart (South Australian politician)" is still inadequate, as the following quote shows:

"While the colony prospered from grain, wool and copper, and the surveying staff was increased so that 60,000 hectares of new land was made available to farmers each month, the South Australian Parliament had a chaotic existence. 'Ministries,' in Pascoe's words, 'appeared and disappeared with the rapidity of scenes in a cinematograph'. Baker, Reynolds, Waterhouse, Dutton, Ayres, Blyth, Hart and Boucaut, who had remarkably expansive ideas, and Strangways, succeeded each other as premier in smart succession. There were many able men in politics, but there was also much rancour and the absence of disciplined parties made for political musical chairs. Anyway, as the province was well established and productive, all the political wrangling 'seemed', to quote Pascoe again, 'to make little difference'."
Derek Whitelock (2000, p116): Adelaide: Sense of Difference. 3rd Ed. Australian Scholarly Publishing Pty Ltd, Kew, Vic 3101. (The quotes by Whielock from Pascoe are taken from: Pascoe, J.J., ed, History of Adelaide and Vicinity, with a General Sketch of the Province of South Australia and Biographies of Representative Men. Adelaide, Hussey & Gillingham, 1901.)

This whole problem seems to have arisen because the original WP article was written as part of a series of political biographies, of Premiers of South Australia, and based on biographical dictionaries which themselves selectively focus on so-called "public life". The WP article as it presently stands does not do justice to his life before he entered politics, and needs to be substantially rewritten and expanded. Whatever his impact in politics, he visited South Australia before colonisation in 1836 and suggested the site of the future location of the City of Adelaide (Whitelock, 2000, p24), which was eventually accepted by Colonel Light. In his various business ventures, he had a substantial impact on the colony; and his name is especially remembered in Port Adelaide and is still associated with the major historic buildings which he erected. This particularly so in the case of "Hart's Mill", which is presently the focus of an intense community debate concerning redevelopment.

As a compromise which complies with (unofficial) WP policy, I now suggest John Hart (South Australian colonist), with a redirect from Captain John Hart, as these are likely to be the most relevant search terms for WP users. Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 01:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.