Talk:Jarisch–Herxheimer reaction

Accuracy

This seems to be an alternative medicine take/relabling another illness. My understanding is that the Jarisch–Herxheimer reaction (presumably the same thing) is more the result of antibiotic treatment (see this for example). Thoughts or clarifications? --Hansnesse 07:59, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

That could be right. I've only heard it in reference to alternative medicine, which is why I added it. If you have a medical definition, feel free to put it first, as that's far more relevant. Even so, I think the alternative medicine definition should stay too, even if improper, to explain how it might be being wrongly used and to resolve confusion. Tyciol 20:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Someone should elaborate on this later, but the Jarisch–Herxheimer reaction can be the result of an antibiotic treatment OR the result of a massive die-off of organisms in the body. The reaction is causitive. The antibiotic treatment obviously has the intention of killing parasites and other organisms, so the end result is the same. The linked article above is lacking in detail. A Jarisch–Herxheimer (herx) reaction may take place long after the beginning of antibiotic treatment, especially in lyme disease patients treated with ceftriaxone, where it may present up to 28 days after onset of treatment, due to the way ceftriaxone is thought to eliminate borrelia burgdorferi - not by killing it directly, but inhibiting the reproduction (and subsequent dying of the failed parents).

Both Jarish and Herxheimer described the reaction to treatment of Syphilis with Mercury. It is quite likely that at least some of the reaction is due to the Mercury. See Mercury poisoning, signs and symptoms --Manfred Bartz (talk) 05:03, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

There is also growing evidence that massive quantities of IV sodium ascorbate (IV vitamin C) may cause the same sort of reaction, likely caused by the body's inability to process the large amount of dead and dying parasites in the blood. Someone please add the NIH and PNAS links to sodium abscorbate and cancer, I don't have the information with me, and this section is severely lacking. -70.179.75.137

I'd add them, but I'm not very familiar with either site at the moment... Tyciol 05:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Candida die-off toxins: There is absolutely no evidence for that on PubMed; it only comes up in alternative medicine and in circumstances where a range of other explanations are just as likely. I suggest the sentence in the first paragraph "The same can be true for Candida die-off..." should therefore be removed. --Manfred Bartz (talk) 05:03, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Though it falls under the catagory as "alternative medicine" maybe a link to reflexology should be added? From a personal account, after performing a full reflexology on myself, I felt worse the next day. My skin was bright yellow and my urine was dark yellow (and HURT!). After about a day it cleared up and I felt better then ever. From my understanding, it was due to newly released toxins being release faster than they could be expelled. Seems like the current theme of this article.

melonwiki: I don't know much about studies to possibly back up this concept of the results of a die-off of pathogens, or fauna, inside us. I think it's interesting that people do seem to have energy crashes and other symptoms concurrent with changes in the status of fat cells, or with the killing off of pathogens. I'm especially interested in the mention above of evidence of a similar reaction to high doses of an antioxidant. Could this also be an autoimmune reaction, increased by the antioxidant? What I am certain of is that the result of ingesting (or injecting?) MERCURY is going to be illness, so that one is definitely a bad example to support this hypothesis. Also, there's nothing wrong with theories, but they should be presented as theory, not fact. Last but not least, do we need to generalize so much about practitioners and users of "alternative medicine?" Many of them would be interested in investigating the ideas here, but they would not accept them as gospel. Melonwiki (talk) 23:50, 15 April 2012 (UTC)melonwiki

Stub?

I'm considering that perhaps this article should be labeled as a "stub." There's very little information in it, and by properly categorizing it as a stub, it can get more attention and develop into a more well-rounded article. Any thoughts on this? 'Kash 20:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment from article

The following comment was added to the article

This entire article is wrong! This is absolutely not the Herxheimer reaction. The Herxheimer reaction is an immunological response to breakdown of spirochete bacteria. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.218.32.161 (talk • contribs) .

I have changed the {{npov}} tag to {{totallydisuted}} and moved the comment here for futher discussion. Thoughts? --TeaDrinker 20:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a few references for spirochete infection. You hear about people talking about candida/yeast and the herxheimer, and maybe it's possible, but there's nothing in medline to support it. I'm not sure about the toxin stuff because my understanding is that the Herxheimer may result from the immune system's response to toxins released from the dying spirochetes. Not sure about this though. 75.27.149.92 20:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It is my understanding that Herxheimer reactions involved a pathogen by definition. Therefore, I have removed references to detox diets. Headwes 22:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarity

"The Herxheimer reaction . . . occurs when . . . toxins are released into the body as bacteria . . . die, often due to antibiotic treatment and rarely due to the use of colloidal silver."

This is somewhat unclear. I'm not informed about this subject, or I would change it to what it means; but I propose that it be changed (by someone who *does* know) to one of the following, or something that has the same effect (this is only the last clip of the quote):

• "bacteria . . . die, often due to antibiotic treatment, or, rarely (or some appropriate adverb), due to the use of colloidal silver."

or

• "bacteria . . . die, often due to antibiotic treatment and rarely due to the use of colloidal silver, which some claim to be the cause (or something like that)."

I have the feeling that the first option is the correct one, but, as I might be missing a third or multiple other options, I'll leave this to someone with the necessary knowledge. — KyleP 20:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Alternative Medicine Bashing?

I say this in the interest of NPOV: The Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction is not "alternative medicine" per se. It is in the Goljan Pathology board review book, a standard medical text. It is discussed with respect to the treatment of Syphilis specifically. I first heard of it in the context of a discussion about Systemic Candidiasis (i.e. a fungus), which may account for it's label as "alternative medicine." My opinion is that non-mainstream physicians get accused of over-diagnosing Systemic Candidiasis, but that is only because main-stream physicians are under-diagnosing it. I just got my Candida titers back from the lab and they were definitely high, so my physician (an MD who is board certified in Internal Medicine) put me on fluconazole for 4 days. I felt a bit sick but for awhile but I am okay now. The concept is important clinically but I do agree that this article should be stripped of any tacit advertisement of colloidal silver and any other claims should be identified as just that, claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.152.86 (talk) 00:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Review on mechanisms and prevention

doi:10.1111/j.1365-2710.2005.00631.x looks like a good source, but I have no access to it. JFW | T@lk 10:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Severity?

Is the reaction harmful (i.e., can it cause death or permanent disability?) or merely unpleasant? Bwrs (talk) 01:17, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Jarisch-Herxheimer ?

Proposal to move this to Jarisch-Herheimer reaction as this would appear to be the preferred terminology in medical circles. Arfgab (talk) 13:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. 24.59.27.172 (talk) 18:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Not an endotoxin

It is not clear that the reaction is caused by endotoxin. Since it is not a gram negative bacteria and reports of the reaction have been found without any endotoxin in the blood (http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/256/3/388.abstract), toxin should be the terminology used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.59.27.172 (talk) 18:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)