Talk:Intelligenzaktion Pommern

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German codename

The affected area was traditionally called Westpreussen (West Prussia) or Pommerellen (Pomerelia) in German. It's - following the German definition - not part of "Pommern". The German-language source (Meier, Anna "Die Intelligenzaktion: Die Vernichtung Der Polnischen Oberschicht Im Gau Danzig-Westpreussen) also doesn't use the term "Pommern". No contemporary German official would have used the Polish definition of "Pomorze" to name the Intelligenzaktion. The current codename is probably an OR translation of the Polish term, I removed it unless a WP:RS proofs the German name. HerkusMonte (talk) 16:16, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question on the alternate German codename, given as "Operation Tannenberg" which, the article states, is supposed to be "after its planners." Wouldn't this name more likely be for the two Battles of Tannenberg (1410 and 1914)? JefeTex (talk) 15:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Propaganda?

I wouldn't normally be reading this if it hadn't been a front page wikipedia story, but in general - it seems more akin to fantastical propaganda. Purges are a very common method of securing control of a territory, especially one that was as highly contested as pomerania. Yet, 65,000 actually seems like a rather low number in comparison to say, the major ethnic cleansing campaigns carried out by the US against the aboriginal peoples of North America. The selection criteria seems rather broad (middle school? come on) and suggesting the intelligence gathering was done by the German minority seems inconsistent with that broad selection criteria. The criteria given in the article wouldn't require much intelligence activity at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.239.64.82 (talk) 21:19, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Intelligenzaktion Pommern

The name is Intelligenzaktion Pommern in literature on the subject. Revert of the original name of the article was done without discussion.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:53, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for the move is outlined above. Nobody provided a source, nobody objected, the initial move was uncontroversial and stable for almost one year. Please seek consensus for your move. HerkusMonte (talk) 08:40, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A consensus should be sought before moving to a name that is was not the orginal one. The action is named as Intelligenzaktion Pommern in sources. If you wish to rename it start a vote and discuss it.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:15, 22 April 2011 (UTC) Additionally "Intelligenzaktion in Pomerania" gives no results besides Wiki-mirrors and copies.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:19, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"A consensus should be sought before moving to a name that is was not the orginal one."

Indeed, however you moved the page without discussion. While the move above was uncontroversial for almost one year, you acted though you clearly knew about the opposition against it. And, talking about the "original name" it's obviously absurd to believe the official German codename was "Intelligenzaktion Pommern". This area isn't part of the German definition of "Pommern", it's West Prussia or Reichsgau Danzig-West Prussia. To believe a Nazi official would use the Polish definition of Pomorze for a codename is absurd. The codename was "Intelligenzaktion" and this happened in different areas of occupied Poland (see e.g. Meier: Die Intelligenzaktion: Die Vernichtung der polnischen Oberschicht im Gau Danzig-Westpreußen[1]). This is just a sub-article of Intelligenzaktion, specified for the area of Pomerania, thus "Intelligenzaktion in Pomerania" is the proper name. HerkusMonte (talk) 10:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, however you moved the page without discussion. I moved the page to the original name sourced by scholarly publication. It was you who moved the page to an original research name not found in any publications.Page moves without discussions such as yours are not automatically valid, even if they stayed without correction for a while. If you want to change the name you should start a vote for move and discuss it. As to to your Original Research and Synthesis-its completely irrelevant. The name Intelligenzaktion Pommern is sourced. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The original name is "Intelligenzaktion" (see Meier above) and this article covers the region of Pomerania. Though you insist to claim "Pommern" was the official contemporary name, anybody with a little knowledge about the different definitions of Pomerania in Poland and Germany should understand how absurd the whole issue is. HerkusMonte (talk) 11:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I added several sources confirming that the established title for this action used is Intelligenzaktion Pommern.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:52, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In Poland, yes. Because Polish sources use the Polish definition of Pomorze. German scholary sources don't use this term because it wasn't used by German officials in WWII. HerkusMonte (talk) 12:00, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In Poland, yes. Because Polish sources use the Polish definition of PomorzeCan you tell me the source of this information? Anyway I also added a German language source which also uses the term Pommern. Anyway this is the established name of the action used in today's writing as proven by sources.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Salentiny calls it ""Intelligenzaktion" in Pommern", not "Intelligenzaktion Pommern" as an official codename [2]. It's just a regional specification which would be translated "in Pomerania". HerkusMonte (talk) 12:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, maybe not. We are not here to perform Original Research. Sources use a specific name for this action, and there is no reason to change it to support one user's dislike for the name.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I added a source confirming the use of the name

So it is now sourced, the un discussed move proposed a name that was nowhere to be found besides wiki mirrors.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:23, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pommern?

Below is the copy-paste transfer of our current discussion from my user talk page, with further comment (below). Thanks, Poeticbent talk 17:39, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Intelligenzaktion Pommern

Could you please try to accept that there is a dispute about the factual accuracy of the codename. I know that this name is used by several Polish sources, but it is completely unknown in Germany and not used at all in non-Polish sources. It's also really obvious that this codename wasn't used by the Nazis because that region is not part of "Pommern" per German definition. It's rather absurd to believe the Nazis would have used the Polish definition of Pomorze. HerkusMonte (talk) 08:21, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, HerkusMonte. This is an English Wikipedia, not German. In the naming of articles we follow the sources, that's what we do. Your personal opinion is irrelevant here, and so is mine. Four citations is more than enough for just one phrase to become the article title in English, you can add "a.k.a." to the first sentence if you want, but the flag must go. Regards, Poeticbent talk 08:43, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Poeticbent. The term "Intelligenzaktion Pommern" is not used in any (not just German) reliable source outside of Poland, the sources used to support this specific term are Polish or translations of Polish sources. It's a simple fact, and not just my own opinion, that this term is not known or used in any of the standard works on the Holocaust/WW II or the German occupation of Poland (e.g. Anna Meier "Die Intelligenzaktion: Die Vernichtung der polnischen Oberschicht im Gau Danzig-Westpreußen" or Wolram Benz: Enzyklopädie des Nationalsozialismus). It's really obviously wrong to believe that the Nazis would have used the Polish definition of Pomorze to describe this area. For the Nazis this area was called West Prussia or maybe Pommerellen (Pomerelia), certainly not Pommern.

It's not just "also known as", there is a dispute about the term itself and therefor the tag should stay. HerkusMonte (talk) 12:43, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not correct. The quickest Google Books' search in the German Holocaust literature shows that the phrase Pommern is used in German books specifically with regard to the war attrocities committed in occupied Poland. See: Das Dritte Reich und die Juden, Volume 2 By Saul Friedländer: "Pommern". Please, don't get me wrong though... I'd like to resolve this here and now, and rename the article if necessary. But, you must provide a working link to what you claim per Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. Otherwise, this is wp:original research, including the unavailable Enzyklopädie des Nationalsozialismus. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 17:39, 15 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are missing the point. Your source above does not use the term "Intelligenzaktion Pommern", it refers to mentally ill people from "Pommern" killed in the Intelligenzaktion (e.g. the mentally ill from East Prussia were deported and killed in Soldau concentration camp and other people from Pommern were deported to other places in occupied Poland). But "Pommern" and Pomorze have different meanings in German and Polish. Anybody with a basic knowledge of the topic should understand the problem. But who cares, I won't start another EEML squabble. HerkusMonte (talk) 13:53, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As the page is on my watchlist, I will comment. I will have to agree with Poeticbent on this one. As Herkus himself stated Polish and English language sources use the term Pommern.Poeticbent also pointed out to German publications naming it as such.I think this can be closed.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:50, 16 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]