Talk:Leonor, Princess of Asturias

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Heir apparent

She would not become heir apparent, since her father could still father a boy after ascending the throne. She would indeed become heir presumptive. She would become heir apparent if her father ascends the throne AND the Constitution is changed (which is likely, I agree, but not a done thing).Hektor 14:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It is my prediction that she will become heiress apparent and eventually, Queen of Spain, in her own right. Spain, has recently leagalized gay marriage, and does not want to appear "behind the times", since Leonor's cousins in Norway, Princess Ingrid Alexandra, and Crown Princess Viktoria of Sweden, will both eventually be Queens in their own rights. Let us not forget, Princess Elisabeth, who will one day be Queen of the Belgians, even though she has two younger brothers. I was hoping Leonor would be named Infanta Isabella Sophia, and reign as Isabella III. But, her parents saw things differently.

Do you know if the UK (regarding Prince William's possible future children) will change their succession from eldest-son to eldest-child? Mightberight/wrong 17:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC).
- As of right now, they are not considering it, to my knowledge. But who knows what the future might hold. If William's first child is a girl, he or his father might push for the change. Monaco also has male preference primogeniture, maybe they will be altering their constitution soon too.Prsgoddess187 00:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I do not forsee the UK or Monaco changing their current primogeniture system, for a variety of reasons. The UK has a nobility (Dukes, Earls, etc.) that co-depend upon the current system. Even the current Queen Elizabeth II feels it is "tradition". Monaco, is strange in that it allows a person born to unwed parents to become legitimate and "dynastic" if the parents marry after the child's birth. However, it will not change to allow equal female succession, I do not think.

If male-preference primogeniture is abolished before Juan-Carlos dies, then Leonor will never be Queen, and her father will never be King. Prince Felipe has two older sisters. Juan Carlos would be succeeded by his eldest daughter, the Infanta Elena.

They could follow the example of Norway. Male-preference primogeniture was abolished, but only for those people born after 1990, so Haakon, Crown Prince of Norway (born 1973) still comes ahead of his older sister Princess Martha Louise (born 1971). But Haakon's daughter Princess Ingrid Alexandra (born 2004) comes before her younger brother Prince Sverre Magnus (born 2005). Since Felipe has been the heir apparent since 1975, I doubt they would revoke his position now. Prsgodd e ss187 13:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One problem is that the issue of succession to the throne is one of the parts of the Spanish constitution that can only be changed by abolishing the constitution altogether and starting over again. - Montréalais 23:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Truth is, until & if the Spanish Constitution is amended, (to end male preference succession); This whole discussion is mute. Infact this 'talk page' is for recommendations for the Infanta Leonor of Spain article only, not for speculations on/debate of the Spanish succession. GoodDay 02:29, 4 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is my prediction that she will become heiress apparent and eventually, Queen of Spain, in her own right. Spain, has recently leagalized gay marriage, and does not want to appear "behind the times", since Leonor's cousins in Norway, Princess Ingrid Alexandra, and Crown Princess Viktoria of Sweden, will both eventually be Queens in their own rights.

Yeah that's exactly why Spain legalized gay marriage or will change male preference succesion. Not to end discrimination or simply as a matter of equal rights for everyone, but so as to not appear behind the times. The things you read in Wikipedia sometimes, really... :) Cheers Raystorm 16:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are monarchs of Navarre considered in reckoning regnal numerals? If they are, Leonor will reign as Eleanor II of Spain (if Eleanor of Navarre, daughter of John II of Aragon and Blanche I of Navarre, is considered). Surtsicna (talk) 11:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from User talk:Geraldo Perez

Please, read this article: La abdicación asegura a Leonor como princesa de Asturias (in spanish): Once her father became king, she automatically became princess of Asturias and legal heir to the Spanish Crown. Even if a brother were born (which would affect the possible succession of the Infanta Sofía), her position is already confirmed by the Spanish Constitution in article 57.2: there is no legal possibility in the Spanish legal system to reverse this title or her condition as heir, since June 19, 2014, date of the accession to the Throne of Felipe VI. Regards, Echando una mano (talk) 18:16, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Echando una mano: That is an opinion piece from 2014 with little weight and doesn't explain why Infanta Elena isn't the current Monarch and her son Froilán isn't the current Prince of Asturias. That opinion piece ignores what actually happened in the past and presumes the rules are somewhat different now. If Felipe had a legitimate son while he is king, Leonor gets displaced and returns to being Infanta Leonor. There may be more of an argument when she comes of age and takes the oath at the Cortes. To add, 57.1 is extremely clear on this, 57.2 just says the first born son becomes Prince of Asturias. They were bending things a lot by giving Leonor the title of Princess of Asturias as that is not in the constitution. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:29, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's an oppinion, but don't say little because is made by an important specilist in Constutional Right.

The three children of King Juan Carlos were born before he was proclaimed Prince of Spain (1969), therefore the succession order of the family was guided by the pragmatic sanctions of Kings Carlos III, Carlos IV and Fernando VII, who gave preference to the man over woman within the same degree of kinship.

When Juan Carlos I became king in 1975, this order was maintained, so Felipe, who was born in 1968, became the heir to the Crown and Prince of Asturias. When the Constitution was approved in 1978, the male preference was maintained.

But what the Constitution says, in its article 57.2, is that the heir to the Crown is from birth or from the event that originates the appeal (ascension of his father, death or resignation of the previous heir) and he will be Prince of Asturias. This is the fact that makes the difference: until then Leonor's order could change, but once she has acquired the status of Princess of Asturias, this status is not revocable or reversible since there is no way to proceed in the Spanish legal system in this case. Leonor is, regardless of any circumstance, legal heir to the Crown of Spain..

In the event that a boy was born, the only way for Leonor to stop being the princess would be for modification of the order of succession by the Constitutional Court.

The other two cases (Japan and Thailand) do not even remotely resemble Leonor's.

I hope I have helped a little to clarify the matter.

Greetings. Echando una mano (talk) 19:40, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Echando una mano: That reading of the constitution would basically make 57.1 irrelevant as to male preference primogeniture as the first born of a reigning king would automatically become heir apparent, regardless of sex. Given the massive amount of discussion about changing the constitution to absolute primogeniture to match the rest of Europe before Infanta Sophía was born to ensure Leonor became queen, along with the apparent desire for the King to not have more children, and everyone basically dropping considerations of changing the constitution afterward, it is very apparent that most Spanish legal people still think 57.1 is the final word on the subject and that 57.2 just has to do with the title the first born son gets and doesn't grant any rights of succession that modifies what is explicit in 57.1. It is widely accepted by most, not all, Spanish legal people that Leonor is actually heir presumptive but the issue is sort of unimportant as her father won't be having any more children. The articles on Wikipedia reflect that understanding and source is the text of the Spanish constitution as specified in 57.1 to back that. Novel interpretations of 57.2 by some commentators don't change that. I personally think that a much stronger case can be made for locking her in to heir apparent is the significance of her formally as an adult giving her constitutionally mandated oath at the Cortes next year accepting her role as heir and the Cortes' formally agreeing to accept it. Geraldo Perez (talk) 20:14, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You say "first born of a reigning king would automatically become heir apparent" and it is exactly like this: since the Constitution confers a special status to the heir, that is why the title of prince (or princess) is like of king's: irrevocable and irreversible. In this way the heir is heir unless death or resignation.

If the current kings are not going to have any more offspring, as you say, then Eleanor is the heir apparent.

And what you say about the oath before the Cortes, according to your approach, would not change anything if a brother was born.

Last thing: you ask me for references, I give you one but you, to support your argument, indicate "most Spanish legal people" but without giving any source in this regard. Can you offer any?

Regards, Echando una mano (talk) 20:31, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The reference is the plain reading of 57.1, that is what we are going with. Alternative interpretations of the Spanish constitution that make a key part of it irrelevant is an exceptional claim that requires exceptional evidence - see WP:EXCEPTIONAL for what we need for that sort of claim. A reference such as a final ruling of a court stating that male preference primogeniture is not an operative part of the Spanish constitution would likely be required. The opinion of one legal expert isn't that, it is just one opinion. Geraldo Perez (talk) 20:55, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For others following this see The Spanish Constitution Official English translation although the Spanish version is controlling. Article 57 is the section under discussion. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:11, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Leonor is heir presumptive because the birth of a male sibling would automatically displace her from the line of succession. The Constitution is very clear on this and this has already happened in the past. What Article 57.2 says is not contradictory on this: Leonor is the heir presumptive from birth, but a later male sibling would automatically become heir apparent from birth, with he becoming Prince of Asturias in the place of Leonor, so there is no conflict there. Echando una mano's rationale is basically a lot of original research based on their own (and wrong) interpretation of how this works. This is a very straightforward issue, really. A constitutional reform was even suggested back in the day when Leonor was born and Letizia was pregnant of a second child so that she could retain her place in the line of succession, but finally Letizia gave birth to a girl and this was not conducted. Impru20^talk 21:22, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Traditional, the title has been given to (first-born) daughters (at birth or other way of becoming the first heiress) and taken from them when a brother was born. 2A0A:A541:A0C:0:64AD:BEC6:37D8:B45D (talk) 01:26, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SMS

I wonder--is Leonor the first royal baby to have their birth announced by the rather un-royal way of SMS Text Messaging? Morhange 03:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How is texting un-royal?

Only that you would think a royal baby's birth would be announced by a news source or by an announcement of the king. Not that it's un-royal, it just seems strange. Morhange 14:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(I know, this reply is just over a year late) The death of Pope JPII was announced by txt message. It seems to be the way now for the media to be notified by txt. Easier than ushering them all into a room. Evil Monkey - Hello 23:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Religious belief

How can a 1 year old baby have religious belief of any kind? 89.129.140.161 17:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

She is a baptised Catholic. Morhange 03:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That does not imply belief. Raystorm 18:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

She was baptised catholic so therefore the religion she is apart of is the catholic religion so she is catholic until the day she wants to change her religion. Once someone is baptised that is there religion no matter what age they are. She is being raised in that religion with there beliefs so therefore her beliefs are the same as the catholic religion. Any Church will tell you that. Lil crazy thing 13:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's common sense that a 1 year old baby cannot have beliefs of any kind (including religious). The fact that she's a baptized catholic is a different issue. Maybe it should be formulated differently.

The religious beliefs of one's parents have a lifetime effect on the children. So it is absolutely fine to say that the child's religion shall be the same as that of his or her parents, as it is those religious values and culture, with which the child is raised. 112.134.223.55 (talk) 17:35, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's ridiculous and you changed the contention in the middle of your sentence: one thing is for a belief to "have a lifetime effect" and a different thing is having that belief. --82.36.68.79 (talk) 14:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Expand the article"?

I think this silly template should be removed. What else can you write about a two-year-old child? Surtsicna (talk) 16:13, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, not much, I grant you. But you might say something about her current education. I think she is in kindergarten at the special school for the royal guard in Madrid, and probably you could find sources for that easily. I remember there was a lot of news about it on her first day. --Ashley Rovira (talk) 16:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing

This article is pretty much unsourced. I am leaving a note here in the hopes that someone with some expertise in this area can pop up and fix it. Otherwise, I'm afraid most of the article needs to be removed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Picture request

Leonor is 7 years old now and doesn't have a profile picture... I think she should have one as she's more well known and there are lots of pictures of her online.

If you find one with a suitable copyright status, feel free to add it. Surtsicna (talk) 16:31, 19 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is a picture now. --2.96.171.4 (talk) 12:52, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That photograph was not published under a free license and will therefore be deleted very soon. I have consequently removed it from the article. Please don't upload and insert such photographs. You can only insert images that are in public domain or published under Creative Commons Attribution or Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike licenses. You can find such images on lots of places, for example here and here. Surtsicna (talk) 16:25, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Youngest Heir??

The media are currently quoting her as the youngest direct heir....what does this mean ?.... surely the Dutch girl and the Belgian girl as heirs, are older ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.126.3 (talk) 22:59, 20 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK, she is currently the youngest direct heir (as in, first in line) to a throne. She was born in 2005 and is eight, while Amalia and Elisabeth are a couple years older. Elisabeth is actually the youngest heir apparent, since Leonor is, until the constitution changes, only heiress presumptive. The current youngest direct heir seems to actually be Prince Lerotholi Seeiso of Lesotho. Morhange (talk) 02:27, 21 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

what tosh... Elizabeth and Amalia are both first in line and therefore direct heirs, no ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.16.126.3 (talk) 23:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on what you mean by direct heir? Heir apparent? If so, Lerotholi is still the youngest, born in 2007. Morhange (talk) 04:00, 23 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

filipino descent category?

I don't understand the category if it's by nationality/ancestry? Her maternal great-great grandfather was born in the Philippines but he was born to Spanish parents so it's not like she's Filipino ethnically she's neither filipino by nationality nor ancestry.--76.213.232.0 (talk) 08:50, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ancestry

Will leave this table here until reliable sources can be found Sheila1988 (talk) 21:13, 6 July 2018 (UTC) She is a direct descendent of Wilhelm II, German Emperor, George I, King of Greece, Queen Victoria and all the kings of Spain on her father's side. On her mother's side, Leonor is descended from the veteran Asturian radio journalist Menchu Álvarez del Valle.^[1][reply]