Talk:Indo people

Indo people
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Indonesia	approx. 1,000,000 (with partial Indo ancestry)[citation needed]

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Deepening 2010

Great article. Agree with an earlier comment by someone here stating its quality is superior to the Dutch language one (where editors cant seem to differentiate between Indo (mixed blood) and Totok (full blooded) 'Indische Nederlanders'). An overall trend not uncommon as english wiki environment boasts the highest quality contributions in the whole wide wikiworld.

Anyway I cant be bothered with working on the Dutch one (even though its my native language) and would love to make my contributions here. The current article already gives a brilliant overview, so I would like to deepen some of this articles 'chapters'. Today I have linked in a 'main' article to the 'pre-colonial' sub chapter, so we can go into more depth there.

Hoping for some native portuguese speakers to translate and contribute some portuguese info and data.

KARL RAN (talk) 18:35, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Taking a logical second step into facilitating elaboration on the topic by creating a main article on the specific colonial era: 'Indos in colonial history'.

There is much academic study (in several languages) on this era not yet reflected in wikipedia/en.

Hope to encourage editors to participate.

--KARL RAN (talk) 11:33, 24 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mestiço and coloured are nto just pre-colonial terms, but still used. I am not sure how widely Indo is used outside the Netherlands. Certainly I have never heard it used in New Zealand.

Restructuring_2008

Due to the many valuable 2007 contributions made by our fellow wikipedians on several of the Indo communities around the world (merci!), I restructured the article to clearly differentiate between the historical and contemporary additions. btw. The only major Indo community still missing is the one in australia (&new zealand). Regards JG It's just HIS story... (talk) 21:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating reading material. thank you! Otto

Indo's in Sumatra

From my readings,it seems that most Indos or all Indos are Dutch+JAVANESE descent. Are there any Indos in Sumatra? Do anyone know anything about Indos there? If so,where exactly are most Indos situated in Sumatra during the Dutch East Indies period? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.50.205.59 (talk • contribs)

Indo subculture

Instead of bashing the Japanese, the editor might want to provide more information on the subculture of "Indo's". we have our own flag now, we have our own customs and gave the netherlands the pasar malam and some culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christian Lebis (talk • contribs)

Can someone confirm that Erwin Koeman is indo? I never heard this before, and why isn't Ronald Koeman mentioned? (unsigned?)

Disambig

There are two 'other meanings at the top of the page - I think that deserves a disambig SatuSuro 09:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

removal bulk of article

Weird to see that someone deleted a major contribution and replaced it with this original stub?? As per comments by others this stub doesnt really add any informative data. While the article I read last had many topics of interest confirmed by many other WIKI articles. Doesnt seem constructive to me to remove it in total. How can people like myself study and enhance the article if its removed and repaced with the stub? Looks to me that disturbs the whole point of Wikipedia. Suggest the responsible editor or contributor returns the page to its previous state.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.94.191.131 (talk • contribs)

The large addition i removed was only made a few days before i removed it - viewing the history tab will confirm this. By User:JAGO. As per my edit summary, it's because it is a major addition without 1 single reference. Again, as per my edit summary, please see WP:RS. Surely if someone can write that much they can provide citations? Also, such large one-off additions are often copy'n'paste copyright violations. None of the text should be replaced before such citations are provided - this is fundamental to wikipedia. I will notify the User:Jago. Merbabu 12:41, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with the unsigned comment. The 7 feb addition by user JAGO that was removed by user Merbabu was of significant higher value then the stub status this article is returned to. I dont see the point of this kind of 'editing'. Suggest someone returns the favour. Adrian 213.160.193.50 17:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The 'point' of the removal is straightforward. It is based on at least two of wikipedia's 5 non-negotiable princples - not just some optional guideline. Please read WP:VERIFY, WP:NOR and WP:RS. The onus is on the WRITER to provide references. Wikipedia is to based on published reliable sources. If they can't provide it, the material shouldn't be there. Why can't the editor put such citations (preferably in-line) now rather than it being unsourced and others have to chase them later. It's about wikipedia's quality. Wikipedia is intended as a serious encyclopedia, not just any other web-site where people can write what they please. Try reading Wikipedia is failing. Note that the problem is poor (no?) referencing. Merbabu 20:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just dropped in but would like to make the statement that wikipedia is not a encyclopedia that you purchase off the traditional bookshelf subject to conventional rules. I concur with the opinion that the whole point of wikipedia is the opportunity by the whole on line wiki community of thousands or millions even, including myself, to verify any content deliverd to the forum. We should be strict in removing non sense. But a stub is per definition non sense and we have enough of them. This is something we must take for granted. Wikipedia is living documentation under constant revision. This continued revision will eventually guarantee its data quality. This does require however that we should leave usefull material on and make it subject to revision. I have browsed the articles version mentioned in previous comments and I actually see nothing wrong with leaving it on for enhancements by others. The first person commenting on its removal appears to be interested in several topics of the article. So its likely that this is one of the people that will start potential revision of specific subjects in the article. And so Wikipedia lives on another day fullfilling its promise... Good luck with this article I hope it looks better soon. Gerry 80.120.189.158 21:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Given that it seems those in favour of re-inserting have not actually addressed the policy of verification, i will paste here the summary. Remember, this is one of only five compulsory 'policies', not an optional 'guideline'...

This page in a nutshell:

Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources.
Editors adding new material should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.
The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not with those seeking to remove it.

Merbabu 09:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks to the wikipedians that have left their comments and motivated me to continue contribution. Still convinced of the fact that I had not stated any unconventional claims that were likely to be challenged I do acknowledge the requirement of citing sources and have therefore looked up my main reading material which you can now find in the bibliography. I have also added peer reviewed academic journals and articles that should assist editors and readers alike to research or verify this wikipedia articles content in its current form and state. Pls revert to the external links. I hope the interested readers have not been deterred and will return to this topic to assist in its enhancement. Merci and Kind rgds, JAGO It's just HIS story... 01:12, 26 February 2007 (UTC) Ps. Pls feel free to contact me on my user page in case of specific questions.[reply]

Diaspora

Firstly excellent article contribution by responsible editor. It is overall well referenced and should perhaps even move away from its stub status. (Not sure yet how thats done though in Wikipedia.) To my knowledge and information I can confirm most everything covered. However believe Ive read that that are actually 6 distinctive waves identified w/rgds to the Indo Diaspora. Will try to look that up and present to editor in chief ; ) if still active in Wikipedia. Kind regards, JOHN NATHANN 18:32, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well it was 5 waves afterall. Ill find something better to contribute... Krgds, JOHN NATHANN 15:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My compliments and thanks. It is a very well done article. It does miss that fact that Indos born in Nederland are classified as Oude Nederlanders and can still be repatriated. I've just done that after living 43 years in California. Some of us didn't assimilate into local American melting pot all that well. There is also some stuff missing from the transition period after WWII. My father faought for Sukarno's opponent but Sukarno was supported by the Brits, who wanted the Dutch to lose their colonies. This is anacdotal and unsupported as it is only my vague memory of tales told by my father, who died in 1993. My uncle in Gilzen-Rijen NL, has more data but I would have to go there to get it. It should also be made clear that General MacArthur suppressed and destroyed much evidence of that period to enable the American acceptance of the Japanese surrender. The Japanese camps that the Indos were kept in, for seven years, were horrific. --Slamlander (talk) 06:24, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some Indos have migrated to South America, primarily in the then-Dutch colony of Suriname in the 1950's, and invitations from the governments of Argentina, Brazil and Chile for about a thousand Indos resettle in communities with similar economies and climates to their former homes in Indonesia. The Indo Dutch came to South Africa and briefly a few hundred in the former Portuguese colonies of Angola and Mozambique. Indo Dutch in Africa or South America continually moved onto the Netherlands or the USA in the 1970s and '80s, but the chapter of Indo migration was that cold war allies with governments not in favor of Communism (esp. true in South Africa and Argentina). It was when Indonesians fled political and economic disorder when there was Communist party influence from independence 1949 to 1966 when Suharto began his 30-year rule as dictator of a right-wing military regime) should not be forgotten. + 71.102.11.193 (talk) 05:08, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

these are all very interesting comments made and are begging for inclusion. or perhaps deepening (in sub articles) as one of the core editors suggested for 2010 efforts. on the talk page below several visitors/readers suggested to join forces and share knowledge in a more coordinated fashion. im a great believer in the strenght of wikipedia as a combines knowledge base. however as mentioned above, quality of this article can only be enhanced when we adhere to wikipedia guidelines. mainly we shld always ensure that contributions are cited and referenced along academic principles. this is indeed not the place for personal recollection and original research. that would be more appropriate for community sites (facebook) and even the (usa) indo project. so wld like to call for all those interested and proficient in the english language to read up on wikipedia rules and start smaller contributions in an attempt to form a wider team of experienced contributors that can enhance the quality of this article and related topics like the bersiap one. also sincerely hope key editors like john nathan and karl ran return to this forum. kindest regards, priscilla mathias, melbourne, australia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.134.100 (talk) 02:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

english vs dutch wiki

Hi, just dropped in from another wiki world. Wanted to let the editors of this article know they did a very nice job. This article is even better then the Dutch language one. Keep it up guys. Marcel 194.151.13.225 19:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

too many family names

Originally, most VOC employees came to the Indies without wives. The same went for the many Dutch and German soldiers who served in the Netherland East Indies Army. Family names include: Du Perron, Fransz, van Haastert, de Grave, Knuppel, Varkevisser, Moll, La Fontaine, Berk, de Groot, Vogelsang, Hanson, Davies, Middleton, de Vries, Cohen-Stuart,etc

Including some family names to illustrate the fact that all Indo-European families in its first definition have European last names is fine. Should not try to make it a complete list that is impossible and unnecessary. Think there are too many names. The long list of famous Dutch Indos already supports that. Also the comment on the East Indies Army does not belong there. But in the next section: The KNIL is part of that. Final comment: Also believe the categories arent giving this book its cover. Etnic group in Indonesia? But only historically then, nothing about Indos in contemporary Indonesia?? If they have disappeared then why not Etn. group in Holland or America...? Sorry if I sound bitchy... I actually think this article is both comprehensive and clear in its high level overview of a long history. Warm rgds, Ms.Finesse 02:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Added the long awaited appropriate part for Indo citizens in Indonesia. Probably the part that was always intended to feature by the orignal topic starters. JOHN NATHANN 19:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A CLASS!

This article is A class except maybe for the missing Indos in Indonesia section. Good job everybody and good luck with it. Pat —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.201.18.68 (talk) 20:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Registration of Indos in the Netherlands.

Just checked and Indos in the Netherlands are officially registered by the Dutch CBS as citizens of foreign descent (Dutch: Allochtonen) when at least one parent is born outside the Netherlands. Interestingly enough their Eurasian status puts them in the Western category of foreign citizens. Krgds, JOHN NATHANN 18:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC) Indeed. Btw. many thanks for your contributions. Excellent work. Regards, It's just HIS story... 20:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thought above comments actually award mentioning in the article itself. Dutch official CBS registration differentiates between citizens of the netherlands that are born in the (geographical) netherlands(called 'Autochtonen') and those born outside (called 'Allochtonen'). Although in the Netherlands the latter term is often misinterpreted as meaning 'Foreigners', both terms actually refer to Dutch citizens. More specifically the registration term 'Allochtonen' does not only refer to Dutch citizens born abroad, but also their children. Even if only 1 of the parents is born abroad their children are put in the 'Allochtonen' registration box. So for registration purposes: if one parent is Indo (not born in the Netherlands)the child is Indo. (Interestingly enough this makes the entire royal house of the Netherlands, including the queen and the crown prince, 'Allochtoon'.) Hope my contribution added value to this already great article! Wiki rules, Atilla

Renamed 'Indo people'

The article was renamed 'Indo people' to conform to a (sort of) standard ('XXX people' for ethnic groups, 'XXX language' for languages). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jorge Stolfi (talk • contribs) 12:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

East Timor

I have removed the folllowing statement Even in East Timor the mestizos [sic] play leading political roles (both elected presidents are mestizo). East Timor was not part of the Dutch East Indies, and of the country's two presidents, only José Ramos Horta is mestiço, Xanana Gusmão is not (although his first wife was.) Quiensabe 19:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quick inet ref check shows that the vast majority of online articles (english, french, portuguese, indonesian language) confirms Gusmaos metizo background, as well as the wiki link you refer to: Xanana Gusmão. There is only 1 unreferenced english online article (i.e. blog) that claims otherwise. For those familiar with the ethnic Timorese physical features his mestizo roots also seem obvious. Suggest to revert. JAGO It's just HIS story... 00:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC) (Ps. Nowhere its suggested that E.Timor was ever part of the Dutch East Indies.)[reply]

List deletion

Just noticed deletion of the 'Lists of Indos' page, that was linked to this article. (?)

Well what can I say? Overzealous admins run a rampage again... The Wikipedia Achilles heal revealed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.94.191.131 (talk) 22:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image copyright problem with Image:Barryprima.png

The image Image:Barryprima.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --07:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Undiscussed removal of Eddie Van Halen

See this edit. Badagnani (talk) 21:55, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No discussion required concerning removal of potential WP:BLP violations, with no sources whatsoever to back up that he himself is an "Indo person." Bulldog 22:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

compliments

very comprehensive article. thank you to all contributors. regards, ray —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.70.98.245 (talk) 06:26, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

very nicely built up by knowledgable contributors. perhaps an opportunity for a collaborative portal? grts, Albert. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.15.164.167 (talk) 10:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Guess we would need around 4 to 6 editors for that? Eric —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.232.48.204 (talk) 03:15, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Annoyed by Cultural Straitjacket

I realize that many people may disagree with me on this point, but I find the statement that "they find it hard to recognise their own cultural features" problematic. This makes the false assumption that blood and culture are identical or that one follows automatically from the other. If they don't recognize these cultural features as their own, then I would argue that by definition it's not their culture. It may be their parents' or grandparents' culture, but that really isn't the same thing. Cultural identity is fluid, especially across generations, and I see no reason to insist that Indo people or any other minority must stick to a static and stereotypical idea of "their own" culture. If they speak Dutch, live Dutch and feel Dutch, then their culture is Dutch.

Maitreya (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it does say "some find it hard" - but I take your point. But the article is a bit of mess - it takes a whole lot of opinionated academic articles and strings them all together as fact, giving us numerous dubious statements such as the one you point out. The whole thing needs a big cleanup with heavy but reasoned use of the delete and backspace keys. --Merbabu (talk) 21:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do see where Maitreya's point is coming from. However the mentioned "false assumption" is not a statement in the article and his conclusion of "fluid identity over generations" drawn from that is actually well reflected in the quote and sentences that follow. The cited references actually clearly illustrate how first & second (grandparents & parents) generations as well as the third generation of indos in diaspora all have their own self-constructed understanding of their cultural features that make up their (group and/or individual) identity based on the memory, post-memory and absent memory theories as shown by the work of Prof Hirsh [5] studies. Including these theories might be a bit too scientific for this article though. I think the point that is made ie 'without good understanding of roots/history it is hard to construct identity (especially when your identity is hybrid)' is made sufficiently clear in the text as is.

I have actually read all the academic studies cited and realise most have not been published in english yet:

Boersma, Amis, Agung Indovation, de Indische identiteit van de derde generatie. (Master thesis, Leiden University, Faculty Languages and cultures of South East Asia and Oceania, Leiden, 2003) [6] ; De Vries, Marlene. Indisch is een gevoel, de tweede en derde generatie Indische Nederlanders. (Amsterdam University Press, 2009) ISBN 978 90 8964 125 0 [7] ; Vos, Kirsten Indie Tabe, Opvattingen in kranten van Indische Nederlanders in Indonesië over de repatriëring (Master Thesis Media and Journalism, Erasmus University Rotterdam, Faculty of history and art, The Hague, 2007) [8] Radio interview with K.Vos ; Iburg, Nora “Van Pasar Malam tot I Love Indo, identiteitsconstructie en manifestatie door drie generaties Indische Nederlanders.” (Master thesis, Arnhem University, 2009, Ellessy Publishers, 2010) ISBN 9789086601042 [9].(in Dutch)

They are indeed opinionated (fortunately) however none of the conclusions are contradictory. They are in fact complimentary as they take different perspectives on this complex and potentially contentious subject matter. Hybrid culture and identity can be tedious topics. However I personally find it also extremely fascinating and not just because I am part Menadonese myself (lol).

Fully agree with Merbabu that the article can do with a good clean up. Particularly as I have noticed that the Indonesian one which has borrowed quite a bit (good!) from this article has become a feature in wiki/id. As I have seen that Merbabu is a very experienced editor I hope he can be persuaded to collaborate in a joint effort of reasoned editing? --KARL RAN (talk) 13:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent article thks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.203.115.14 (talk) 19:25, 16 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

numbers

w/rgds to the numbers the oficial CBS numbers are quite good to count indos. they are as accurate as possible and actually (by definition) exclude the expatriate totok indies dutchmen. the adjusted (higher) numbers by nidi made in 2001 include south moluccans and totoks as well as imigrated indos. this recalc (also based on cbs data, btw) was made for financial compensation purposes due to the decennia long neglect of the dutch government w/rgd to their dutch indies population. Jhn Lng —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.132.224.81 (talk) 09:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any Indo-icity fit for a gallery?

(Moved from Apdency talk page.)
In the famous Indo people picture gallery I see a writer named Marion Bloem. Closer examination teaches me that her parents where Eurasian who moved to the Netherlands in 1950 after which she was born in the Netherlands. If Wilders cannot be in the Indo people article, then neither should she. The same can be said of Louis Couperus, who was Dutch-born to a mother with Eurasian roots. Wilder's comes from a similar background and is of a similar ancestry. Either include, or exclude them all. In which case some suitable Indo people have to be found to replace their images with. In the meantime, I am putting back the image of Wilders in the page of Indo people (he is also on the Dutch article in a list of famous Dutch people of Indonesian roots). I have no intentions whatsoever to remove the edits of someone else or to engage in an edit war, but I honestly believe I have a valid point here and wish for your opinion on this.

Kindly awaiting your reply, Mythic Writerlord (talk) 19:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I'd rather (again) refer to the comments I made on Talk:Geert Wilders#Indo. Please read them there. Marion Bloem's story is a very different one, not in the least because her life is intensely and openly connected with Indo life. Also note the disclaimer preceding the list in the Dutch article you mention. Apdency (talk) 19:29, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the people in this list of "famous Indo's" simply have Indonesian blood, like Wilders. They do not, however, have the Indonesian nationality, most weren't born there and some are not even connected to Indonesian culture (which hardly excists, because Indonesia is made up out of hundreds of different cultures and ethnic groups on many different islands). I have read your comments on the link you gave, but I stand by my opinion. I can see no reason in which Wilders ancestry is so much different then many of these other people. And, also, Wilders is mentioned as an Indo in the Dutch article with a list of famous Indo's, and also on other wikipedia's. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 19:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indonesia as a nation is not the point. The point in the mentioned discussion was: if there's an Indo background of Wilders, is that one factor (which disclosure was the result of some special research) then prominent enough to give it a place on the very top of his article? Conclusion was that it's not prominent enough for such a basic mention. But that question is also mirrored in another question: if there's an Indo background of Wilders, is that one factor (which disclosure ... etc.) then prominent enough to give Wilders a place on the top of an article on Indo people? It seems that question is being ignored here.

Concerning the Dutch article, I already said it contains a disclaimer. It says "Of some names, it's not sure if they belong in the list." Its talk page also very clearly reflects the controversy surrounding Wilders' ethnicity. That controversy alone is a very good reason not to give Wilders a top position here. I also think I have valid point. Apdency (talk) 09:50, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@[User talk:Mythic Writerlord|talk]]) 19:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Generally, Indo's had the European status and the Dutch nationality, and not the Indonesian or the Indonesian status. Also their culture isn't authentic Indonesian either, not Javanese,Balinese,Madurese,etc, but a mix of Indonesian and colonial Dutch/European. In the colonial times they were a big Eurasian ethnic minority. In the Dutch article it doesn't say Wilders is an Indo. Its a list of people belonging or coming from the Eurasian (Indo European) ethnic group of the colonial times, and people with direct or indirect colonial Eurasian descent or roots.

Geert Wilders mother is actually of Eurasian decent, so is his grandmother,greatgrandparents,etc. I wouldn't say Wilders is an Indo, but he has Indo European or Eurasian roots. I would say Geert Wilders have Indo or Eurasian roots. Noordin28 (talk) 16:06, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@All

I fully concur with Nrdin28 statements above. Well put.

A suggestion: The list of notable Indos should only include Indos that can be quoted acknowledging their Indo descent. If they have not done so in a public citeable statement, they dont know or dont care and in any case should not be included in the list. All the (un)likely ie disputed Indos can still be listed in this list anyway: List of Dutch Indos (or this1: List of Indonesian Indos). --Ms.Finesse (talk) 06:43, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with that. Apdency (talk) 09:51, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

With the below quote from the article itself in mind I support the a.m. suggestion made by Ms.Finesse, particularly when it concerns contemporary Indos ie living people. Please note that this would mean also excluding Van Bronkhorst from the top list. --KARL RAN (talk) 09:07, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"The older an Indo family is, the harder it becomes to pinpoint an actual percentage of either pure European or Indonesian blood. In most cases this is practically impossible to determine. As Indo culture evolves, steered by the path of the Indo Diaspora, each new generation of Indos keeps integrating more and more into their new homelands. Increasingly the issue of an Indo identity is becoming a matter of personal choice and not a given into which an individual is born"

Quoted from: —Indo people, See: Indo_people#An_undetermined_future.
*Referenced from: —Crul, Lindo and Pang. ‘Culture, Structure and Beyond, Changing identities and social positions of immigrants and their children.’ (Het Spinhuis Publishers, 1999) ISBN 90-5589-173-8 p.41 [10] and (in Dutch) De Vries, Marlene. ‘’Indisch is een gevoel, de tweede en derde generatie Indische Nederlanders.’’ (Amsterdam University Press, 2009) ISBN 978 90 8964 125 0 P.354 [11]

Agreement with this way of describing the issue, too. I'll replace Wilders and Van Bronckhorst with more typical Indos. Apdency (talk) 09:05, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

NEW EDITS 2012

Not sure if the latest invasive additions by newbee editor are all improvements to the article. Are there senior editors monitoring this article? Gr., Eddie C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.199.57 (talk) 07:09, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well I'll give it a shot on talkpage, which new editor fails to use I may add.

In regards to edits by user: rofteh Firstly latest amendments with regard to the images do not adhere to the consensus guidelines set out above. overall redistribution of images does not seem to be a great improvement. my personal cosmetic opinion.

many of his refs are bare urls, dead links and/or opinion blogs that equally often do not even reference his edits.

he never gives descriptions of his edits.

Insisting on adding south african boers into this article seems purely speculative and is original research and pov that shld be removed quickly.

moreover sr.editors or admins shld take some time to educate new editor -rofteh- on wiki policies.

Gr., Eddie C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.96.199.57 (talk) 02:14, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Eddie C. I'll tackle the the disregard of the WP:NOR rule, as it seems the most erroneous issue at hand. Quick check shows all so called references make no notice of any relation to Indos at all. KARL RAN (talk) 22:36, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Article rename

Should this article be renamed to Indische people or Indische Nederlanders? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwauf (talk • contribs) 13:01, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No..., Indo people is more correct. We should not confined it to certain period of time. In contemporary Indonesia it is not always means descendants of colonial Dutch East Indies, other recently mixed Indonesian-European (Caucasian) ancestry are also called Indo. Such as Tamara Bleszynski, a Sundanese (Indonesian)-Polish actress. PS: stop deleting important and interesting infos without consent just because it is not referenced.Gunkarta (talk) 15:41, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia's policy is information should be removed if it is not referenced, regardless of consent or whether you find it important or interesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kwauf (talk • contribs) 15:53, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kwauf your first remark/request shows you are not a subject matter expert as Indos are (more often then not) Indische Netherlanders, but Indische Nederlanders are not necessarily Indos (See: Totok), so pls refrain from random deletions. Your contributions may be more constructive when you educate yrself on the subject matter first.

Meanwhile I have considered your invasive deletions and approached them as goodwill cite requests. Best regards, KARL RAN (talk) 20:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, KARL RAN, I won't refrain if I am following Wikipedia policy. Whether I am an expert or not is irrelevant, I follow Wikipedia policy, you do not. They were constructive edits, not random deletions, your claim I should educate myself on the subject matter first is also irrelevant. I don't need to be educated on the subject to contribute to this article. The article should have citations, if you were the contributor of that information, you should have provided citations. Once again you have reverted my edits which justifiably removed content without citations. This article is not yours to control. Kwauf (talk) 08:53, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article is ours to control: All involved wikipedia editors, of which there are a few and I am just one of those involved. The issue of knowledgeable vs totally uninformed editors is this: an uninformed editor may put a cite request behind every single sentence in the article. Im sure you see where that could be problematic, or tiresome and noncosmetic at the very least. So to save us all unnecessary workloads I prefer editors to be fairly acquainted with the subject matter at hand. And more so when editors feel the need to blank whole sections. For the same reasons I am not going to blank content here: Quantum chromodynamics.

Anyway thank you for adding cite requests iso deleting sections and feel free to contribute and join our collaborative effort to further enhance this article. And just to be clear I might be knowledgeable about the topic, but I did not write the bulk of this article. That honour goes to other editors. I just think this article is an actual Wikipedia gem worthy of careful consideration. Best regards, KARL RAN (talk) 22:30, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

General comment

Citations for the population figures in the info box should be provided, either in the info box or in the text (preferred). If they are in the text, then it is OK to leave them without in the info box (or the lead for that matter). Otherwise, the info can be removed at any time. In the meantime, the citation request tags should remain in the info box. thanks --Merbabu (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

PS - I saw an edit summary that said this info "...is common knowledge to any Indonesian". Common knowledge is not a standard for inclusion. Any information in wikipedia needs to be verifiable, and if challenged without a reference to a reliable source, can be removed immediately. --Merbabu (talk) 23:00, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnic group classification

Should the term ethnic group be used in the article? If it is to be used in the article, then there has to be citations that demonstrate that it is recognised as an ethnicity or ethnic group. Searching "Indo people", "Dutch East Indies" and ethnic, or just "Indo people" and ethnic in Google Scholar produces few results, none of which recognise it as an ethnicity or ethnic group. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22indo+people%22+%22dutch+east+indies%22+ethnic&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5 Kwauf (talk) 08:45, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like you might have found your answer. :-) --Merbabu (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see the most frequently aired on "Indonesian television" the world famous people who have Indonesian ancestry .. which I know is Kristen Kreuk and Edie Van Hallen .. Indonesians always proud of it. I hope to be able to load them. ( I'm Indonesian ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.211.243.189 (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indos in Indonesia

Lets fix this cite request. I think this is one for the Indonesian editors to find out about: What is the Indonesian (language) source for the statement that 1,000,000 Indonesians are of Indo descent? ->

Indos in Holland

And we also need to cite a source for this one:

"However researcher Dr. Peter Post of the NIOD estimates that there are between 1.5 to 2 million people with Indo blood living in the Netherlands. The Indo Dutch living abroad not counted."

Please help out Dutch (language) Wikipedians!

Proposed Merger

Vote against merging. Not necessary and counterproductive. The article Indo people covers a group of people, while the other article covers a specific historical period in their history. So while the group article covers all historical time periods on a high level, the other article covers an exact time period in more depth. Cheers, Barry — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.169.251.130 (talk) 15:10, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dont see the point in merging. See above mentioned points. Perhaps more detail from the other article can be added here. But thats about it. Warm regards, Ms.F. --Ms.Finesse (talk) 23:04, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Celebs

i don't recognize a SINGLE one of the people given as "examples" - are they supposed to be famous?

maybe in holland, but for the rest of us, how about someone a little more prominent, like Kristen Kreuk or the Van Halen brothers? 209.172.25.66 (talk) 03:40, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion for the tag "Indo people"please put the mix in the picture actors / actris Eurasian Indonesia because too many people working artists who have Indo blood. I even saw no one single image of this article, thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.10.66.73 (talk) 15:40, 10 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

lol, I have opinions like you .... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.193.96.153 (talk) 03:58, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits by Kwauf

Kwauf has removed sourced content from this article unilaterally and is reverting any attempt to restore it. Per WP:BRD and Wikipedia:Content removal. I am going to revert him/her one last time, and I ask him/her to state, clearly, why this sourced content is being removed. That is your responsibility as the one proposing the controversial change. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:11, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Read the edits. Some it was not sourced, some of it was, but did not match the information in the references. One reference was a family tree, another a facebook page and a blog, which should be deleted. I added a lot of information and reorganised the page. I am replacing the information I added with references you are deleting.Kwauf (talk) 23:15, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Really now? You're clearly misrepresenting the sources.

De Vries, Marlene. ‘’Indisch is een gevoel, de tweede en derde generatie Indische Nederlanders.’’ (Amsterdam University Press, 2009)
Crul, Lindo and Pang. ‘Culture, Structure and Beyond, Changing identities and social positions of immigrants and their children.’ (Het Spinhuis Publishers, 1999) ISBN 90-5589-173-8 p.41
Cote, Joost and Westerbeek, Loes, ‘Recalling the Indies: Colonial Culture and Postcolonial Identities‘, (Askant Academic Publishers, 2005). ISBN 90-5260-119-4
(Dutch) Willems, Wim, ’De uittocht uit Indie 1945–1995’ (Uitgeverij Bert Bakker, Amsterdam, 2001) ISBN 90-351-2361-1
Dictionary of the modern politics of South-East Asia, pg. 115, Michael Leifer, Taylor & Francis, 2001

These are all from Contemporary history (20th and 21st century), which you removed, and sure as hell are not blogs. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:19, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a bit better, but you are changing the definition unilaterally, which is, again, a no-no. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:23, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That was a mistake. But there is nothing wrong with what I just did.Kwauf (talk) 23:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some comments...

I've never been convinced that the article should be called "Indo (people)". This is an Indonesian term, and its usage is to my understanding as slang. Perhaps it is also a Dutch term, but either way, it is not English, and en wikipedia should be based on English terminology. The article should refer to them as Indonesian-Eurasians (and after the first sentence, just Eurasians) or something using mixed. I get that "Indo" is more convenient, but it still doesn't get around the fact that it's usage is not English, but Indonesian (and Dutch?).
The lead is limited to the definition to Dutch points of view. The Indonesian term "info" applies to anyone mixed Indonesian-"bule" person. The article does mention those of Indonesian-Australian/US/UK/etc mixed parentage - which are probably being born in greater numbers now than Dutch. The lead should be modified to cater for this broader scope. --Merbabu (talk) 21:24, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Mostly Dutch Citizens..."?? - followed by a swamp of citations

This sentence:

Most are Dutch citizens and have great variety of combinations of diverse European and Asian ancestries.^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]

- - - - - -

^ [1]
^ [2]
^ Indische Genealogische Vereniging [3]
^ [4]
^ Thomas Janoski, The Ironies of Citizenship: Naturalization and Integration in Industrialized Countries. Cambridge University Press, 2010. ISBN 0-521-14541-4

...makes claims that would be pretty fundamental to this article - i.e., most "indos" are Dutch citizens. Yet I can't find that claim in any of the 1/2 dozen references provided. Can somebody assist? It would be better to have a single clear reference than having the article swamped with numerous references in the apparent attempt to make something look legitimate. --Merbabu (talk) 00:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To Wikipidia : Very Nice and Thank you for Wikipidia the information about "Indo People" of the Dutch-Indonesian descent. I am Indonesian surprised and proud that so many famous people in the world who have a background Indonesia. This is really interesting information. no one wrong Wikipidia This article contains the information about the "Indo People" just like in Indonesia are still using the term "Indo" to mixed blood Indonesian- Dutch / Eroupean.by" Rianty W" from Indonesia.

Downgrade

Wow, this used to be the best article on the subject matter. Sorry to see its turned to real sh*te. I guess the originators moved on... and lack of ownership by active editors results in the deletion of all sorts of solid info and the addition of rubbish... Suggest this article to be officially downgraded. Pity... Good thing the Indonesian language copy holds up... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.85.228.254 (talk) 00:39, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is article interesting history, but there are in the edit as an example Related ethnic groups: Dutch people, of the European peoples and Indonesian peoples this is correct, but there are added Afrikaners [6] .. this is very funny hmmm

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I found the link http://www.buitenkampers.nl/buitenkampers/application/index.html#/home ...many of the events they have experienced and talked back in those days.thank you ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.194.97.141 (talk) 00:37, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Indo as a slur

'Indo' was a slur in the Dutch East Indies and the term Indo-European might be more appropriate to use as the header of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.214.160.134 (talk) 19:04, 12 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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CHAPTER: Immigration from the Dutch East Indies (1945-1965)

Writing is messy. Probably too many diff. editors. Someone shld sort this out. Regards, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.24.233.131 (talk • contribs) 26 apr 2018 19:55 (UTC)

DISAGREE: Edits to broaden the definition made by brouwers

This is in fact confusing the topic, as is is not at all what is meant here. The prefix 'Indo' may be derived from the word 'Indus', but the article's topic 'Indo people' is very much focused on the Eurasian people of mixed Indonesian and European heritage. Not Indian - European. etc. Please revert. Regards, Danny — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.107.84.45 (talk) 15:56, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism

Hi. I recently opened wikipedia & opened this page. When I found someone tried to do vandalism Ppi4566 (talk) 12:18, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Integration to Indo-Chinese subcultures?

Hi there. I find the sentence "Most upper and middle class Indo's seem to have integrated into Christian Indo-Chinese subcultures" (the forth paragraph from the bottom of the article) quite interesting, but I think it needs to be verified. I put the {{cn}} for the mean time to attract attention to it. Thanks, Naval Scene (talk) 14:41, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Naval Scene: I find the claim to be quite significant (if correct), but without source quite untenable. I have removed it with some other unsourced text. –Austronesier (talk) 17:29, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Austronesier: thank you. Rgds, Naval Scene (talk) 03:16, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Intermarriage Numbers & Modern Reparations Policies.

The article states that 2nd Gen Immigrants had a 80% rate of marriage to Native Dutch. though since the actual numbers of Eurasians is only listed as "estimates", we have no real source on numbers, though the general trend would have been high. Since the Dutch Census doesn't count race, it could be anywhere from 100k to the articles claim of 1-3 million.

Scholarship weeps at such inaccuracies due to Government censorship.

While the older generations were strongly pressured to assimilate into the White Dutch population: eg, no "White", no "non-White", only "Dutch" ; the recent EU (and American) "trend" is towards massive (the California legislature is suggesting $5 million US per person!) economic rewards/reparations towards "Visible Minorities", so People of Mixed-Race Ancestry have increasing reason to identify as such (ESPECIALLY if they don't look visibly diverse). And since there is a government necessity to find out how much funding will have to be distributed, there will be pressure to finally publish the Non-White numbers, which when compared to the total Census figures, will give White numbers.

Perhaps by 2030?

The current Dutch Monarch has apologized to the people of the former colonies & iirc, reparations have openly started flowing to these nations, while hundreds of thousands of refugees from these former colonies (& even nations NOT colonized by the Dutch!) enter Holland Each year, there is the making of a Demographic/Economic Catastrophe. Reparations for 5 million people? Ten million? One million Euros per person?2603:7080:CB3F:5032:8954:43A9:1656:D57E (talk) 23:32, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Population estimates

Jeremy Kusumatmadja, since you restored the population estimates that I'd replaced, could you help me understand where in the sources they're supported? The LA Times source states that 100,000 Indo people live in LA, not in the whole US. Can you help me understand if the other figures you restored are supported by the sources cited? Cordless Larry (talk) 13:35, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since there's been no response here, I'm going to revert this restoration. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done, sources and references are provided, especially since 1.5 million plus is provided by NIOD's source. Jeremy Kusumatmadja (talk) 09:34, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how your sources support the figure, Jeremy Kusumatmadja. They seem to be suggesting that there are approximately 1.7 million Indonesians in the Netherlands, not 1.7 million Indo people. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:40, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] [1]

[2] [2]

[3] Indische Genealogische Vereniging [3]

[4] [4]

[5] Thomas Janoski, The Ironies of Citizenship: Naturalization and Integration in Industrialized Countries. Cambridge University Press, 2010. ISBN 0-521-14541-4

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]