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Latino Americans

Hip Hop was created by the residents of the South Bronx, which includes Black Americans and Puerto Ricans... It happened in 1971, in the middle of a South Bronx park—a moment that would change Beny Meléndez (a Puerto Rican,) his street gang and rock band the Ghetto Brothers, and music history forever. Beny Melendez, aka "Yellow Benji" had the idea to unite all gangs in the South Bronx and play his music every Friday in memory of his right-hand-man, Cornell Benjamin (Black Benji.) Melendez came up with the idea to combine Rock, Pop, Disco, Jazz, and Salsa in order to create music with a belief that they will be heard and it gave them a chance to improve their impoverished rates... The very first Hip Hop idealistic album was Power Fuerza... Then came DJs like Kool Herc and Africa Bammbatta that recognized the idea, then rolled with it till they took it to the studios...

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/Entertainment/ghetto-brothers-nuyorican-roots-hip-hop/story?id=17974037

The rest of what is written after this statement makes no sense what-so-ever... I mean even the Taino Indians of Puerto Rico used to breakdance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BXTITAN (talk • contribs) 02:14, 29 April 2015 (UTC)




Ok, now this article is getting stupid. Latinos, or any other ethnicity that made contributions later does not constitute the "creation" of Hip hop. THe people that started the art form, and created it where Black African Americans, with Jamaican influences. No one is denying the contributions of other people, but I can clearly see the agenda of the people working on this article.

So I guess now your going to add Europeans to the list of people who created Hip hop because Eminem is a popular rapper now?


Here is a vid from the 40s of AFrican Americans breakdancing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zu0dmom4og

Somebody please come fix this article. If this article continues along these lines I am going to start a petition directed to wiki for its obvious racist undertones in any AFrican American articles.


—Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 17:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


The involvement of Latino Americans in creating hip-hop is stated very clearly in the 2009 book "Foundation: B-boys, B-girls, And Hip-Hop Culture In New York" by Schloss, Joseph on Oxford University Press. It talks about the b-boy element of hip-hop and says -

"the early development of the dance took place among small groups of working class black and Latino teenagers... the dance developed in the context of an urban Latino environment... there were three basic stages to the development of the dance: the early rock dance of the '60s, which was Latino and citywide; Brooklyn rocking or uprocking, which was Latino and Brooklyn-based, and b-boying which is black and Latino and Bronx-based". Crateescape101 (talk) 23:06, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


In the documentary " The freshest Kids", The first latino b boy group called " The latin kings" state that hip hop, and breakdancing started out as an African American style then as it became less underground more people took to it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQAK0wbcwZc&feature=channel) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 03:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


An interview with "Crazy Legs" states himself how the latinos started breaking AFTER African Americans did. No one is denying their influence, but even one of the greatest bboys states this himself. "Davey D:I had a conversation with Kool Herc and he said there were some very distinct ways in which African Americans and Puerto Ricans approached b-boying. Could you shed some light on that?

Crazy Legs: I think the difference is when the brothas first started doing and it was at its infancy they weren't doing acrobatic moves. That didn't come into play until more Puerto Ricans got involved in the mid 70s. We then took the dance, evolved it and kept it alive. In '79 I was getting dissed. I would go into a dance and I would get dissed by a lot of brothas who would ask 'Why y'all still doing that dance? ThatÕs played out'. By 79, there were very few African American brothas that was doing thisÉ I one say one other thing. We always maintained the flava. It was like a changing of the guard and all we did was add more flava to something that already existed. We use to refer to it as Moreno style or Cocola style. That was just the slang back then. There were certain Top Rocks called Latin Rock"(http://www.daveyd.com/crazylegsinterview.html) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 04:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The book Foundation interviews many of the original b-boys, and it also includes quotes and info from "The Freshest Kids" documentary - using all the information, the author comes to the conclusion that Latinos were instrumental in creating breaking and hip-hop. Crateescape101 (talk) 13:41, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


That is only 1 book. No one is denying their influences, but the people who started it first were black Americans. Even the first Latino break dancers say this. If this wiki is supposed to put things in order than put the original founders seperate from everyone else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This 1 book quotes and references the people and documentaries you are talking about. The Freshest Kids is just 1 documentary, and Crazy Legs is only 1 b-boy. The book looks at all the evidence out there currently and has a section on the history. It is also the most current and most complete research into it. Crateescape101 (talk) 16:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


So this book overlooks the first black Djs who created the craft, and over looks the first b boys who created the craft first? Because of the first people who started , and created it were black, and its obvious the latinos joined after the culture wasn't underground anymore, why are they being put as creators of the culture? They participated, and evolved breakdancing YES, but started the culture? No. And if you watch that documentary, ALL of the original Latino crew state this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The first founding people of the Music, and the art of b boying were black people. Latino contribution came later, and no one is belittling or denying it. But to say they are the creators of the music, b boying is an insult to myself, and black people. The first latino b boys called it " That moreno style" for a reason. If you look at all past documentaries, all of them clearly stated it was created, and started by black people. I'm not sure if this article needs to be reworded or have someone else organize, and write it, but the founding creators "black people" needs to be stated first.

Darkman1984 (talk) 17:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I've seen the documentaries, and so has the author of that book - as I previously mentioned it quotes from numerous sources, including the Freshest Kids documentary.
You have cherry picked a couple of quotes from a small number of b-boys, but the book takes into account all the interviews and all the information. The rest of your argument is in your own words - wikipedia goes off verifiable citations.
I have given the citation that I used, which clearly contradicts what you are saying, and it takes into account the things you are quoting. Crateescape101 (talk) 19:03, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Darkman, you can't just put anything you want into the article, especially when it contradicts the citations. It's called original research. Zazaban (talk) 20:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Now evidence of the dance forms are comming out and being posted on youtube. The lies on this page , and the obvious racist aims are becoming blatant. Black people have been doing these dance moves since the 40s. I posted the youtube link above, and there are many more sources along with that.

No one is denying other people contributions AFTER the creation. But the creation was from black people. Stop trying to add things into it. Fix this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkman1984 (talk • contribs) 09:35, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

"Now evidence of the dance forms are comming out and being posted on youtube. The lies on this page , and the obvious racist aims are becoming blatant. Black people have been doing these dance moves since the 40s. I posted the youtube link above, and there are many more sources along with that." first off, Racist?plz stop that, this isnt racist. Secondly, look up rocking, uropcking, and toprocking, look up salsa, merengue, bachata and cumbia rhythms(you can bboy to those beats, well alot of them). Lastly look up the actual book hes talking about. Latinos were fundamental in creating Hip Hop, and bboying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.34.188.60 (talk) 05:42, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok since nobody can agree wether latinos helped create hip hop or not, then can there please ATLEST be sections for the Latino contributions, firsts, and later influence on every section?if not the just one big section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.108.210.90 (talk) 06:59, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Part of the issue here may be a clear misunderstanding of the demographics of the Bronx, particularly the relationship between African-American and Hispanic culture within the Bronx. Besides the fact that from the 60's forward, Hispanics have outnumbered African Americans in the Bronx, the evidence is clear, and cited, that both Hispanics and African Americans were present and instrumental at Hip hop's inception, and that Hip hop borrowed from not only Jamaican roots culture, but salsa & merengue as well. "Black people have been doing these dance moves since the 40's" is a logical fallacy, as (1) said dancers were not involved in Hip hop culture, and (2) Cubans, Puerto Ricans Asians and Russians were also doing dance moves that Hip hop borrowed from, in the 1940s and before. The ad hominem (and disengenious) cries of "racist," in the absence of such, are not helpful, unless one's goal is to not be taken seriously. There's enough stuff out here that is actually racist, without defining it as: "Someone I disagree with," or "someone with whom I may not get my way, even though I've likely been proven wrong." -RoBoTamice 18:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

"Latinos joined after the culture wasn't underground anymore" is simply a false statement. "DJ Disco Wiz" was active shortly after Herc, and is credited with creating Hip Hop's first mixed dub recording in 1977. Many MCs and DJs such as Prince Whipper Whip were simply assumed to be African American, in the same way Teena Marie was assumed to be non-white when she first recorded. -96.255.122.45 (talk) 03:06, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Okay, first of all, some of you act like Latinos are a race. It is not considering the black population in Cuba, the indigenous population in Mexico and the white population in Argentina. Second, Hispanic means "of or pertaining to Spain." Hispanic people are people from the European nation of Spain, people that are inhabitants of the European nation of Spain, or people of Spanish descent ie. white people. Third, none of you have any proof that hip-hop dance borrowed from salsa and merengue (I bet none of you would admit salsa and merengue has African influences) because it's FALSE. Poplocking and other supposed hip-hop dances are NOT descended from or associated with any other group except black Americans. Did so-called "Latinos" made an impact on hip-hop? Yes. However, saying so-called "Latinos" contributed to its initial creation is false. Hip-hop was a black American creation with the help of a black Jamaican named Kool Herc. B-Machine (talk) 14:59, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

"Hispanic is also used by people in the United States who are of Hispanic American origin (Hispanic and Latino Americans). Cultural elements (Spanish names, the Spanish language, Spanish customs, etc.) and people known as Hispanic can also be found in other areas that were formerly part of the Spanish Empire, such as in Equatorial Guinea in Africa, or in the Spanish East Indies." -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

"In other words, there were three basic stages to the development of the dance: the early rock dance of the '60s, which was Latino and citywide; Brooklyn rocking or uprocking which was Latino and Brooklyn-based; and b-boying, which is Black and Latino and Bronx-based. Within this basic framework, it is not difficult to see how three constituencies-Brooklyn Latinos, Bronx Latinos, and African Americans-could have three totally different perspectives on the history. " -quoting Schloss http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_hop_dance Respectfully still waiting on some verifiable, reliable cite to the contrary. -RoBoTamice 18:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Unbelievable. Like I said, if you're not from Spain or if you're not of Spanish descent, you're not Hispanic. Period. Do you hear people from Jamaica, the United States, and Barbados saying they're Anglo or British? No, unless one is of English descent. And there are a lot of people of indigenous descent like Mexicans of Aztec/Mayan descent who reject the Hispanic and Latino labels, rightfully so. Go to Youtube and type "not hispanic not latino" and you'll see for yourself.

As for your other paragraph, what exactly makes you think Schloss is correct? Early rock dance? Rock and roll music started in the 1930s and is a descendant of blues. There were plenty of rock dancing in those days. Despite what you think, nothing about that statement proves anything. I'll be back. B-Machine (talk) 14:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

As a hip hop scholar, I find myself cringing at some of the comments here (there is no such dance as "poplocking"). Hip hop culture was clearly a result of the fusion of blacks and Latinos in the Bronx. In my opinion, Schloss gives a bit too much credit to Rocking as the origin of B-boying, but it is clear to everyone that rocking and mambo were two of the greatest influences on the dance itself. Both rocking and mambo were predominately done by Latinos, but a strong contingent of blacks also practiced these dances. Herc and other DJ's who used to spin in the park may not have done so as a direct result of the Mambo bands and drum circles that used to play in the park, but the music and dancing in open places was already a part of the culture in large part because of the Mambo bands. Those within the hip hop community credit Kool Herc's looping of breaks as the beginning of hip hop, and I'm fine with that. He came to the Bronx from Jamaica, and is of African descent. The article could say it originated by a single African American, and it would actually be less controversial. I agree, however, that it is more appropriate to ascribe hip hop's origin to a community. This community was made up of youth from both African and Latino descent. Of course, there were white and Asian innovators within the culture, but one cannot even talk about the creation of hip hop culture without mentioning the fusion of Latino and African-American communities. If there are any founders of hip hop reading this page, I would love to hear their thoughts about this. See "From Mambo to Hip Hop" by Henry Chalfant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyp4uakQfAY Schloss, Joseph G. Foundation: B-boys, B-girls and Hip-Hop Culture in New York. New York: Oxford University Press, 2009, particularly chapter 7. ~LG, Nov, 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ossum86 (talk • contribs) 08:03, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

The mentioning of b-girling

Hello! This is my first time doing this so please excuse me if I mess up. The article is very informative! Just one suggestion, I think including the word b-girling next to b-boying or putting b-girling in parenthesis would be be beneficial to the article. Putting a link to the word b-girling could help other people find out what b-girling is about and could spark the interest of females reading this article. Other than that it's great!

Cmace105 (talk) 19:49, 23 February 2016 (UTC)Carlos Maysonet. February 23, 2016.

Emceeing

"It is characterized by four distinct elements, all of which represent the different manifestations of the culture: rap music (oral), turntablism or DJing (aural), b-boying (physical) and graffiti art (visual)."

I think we should add "emceeing" in "turntablism or DJing"; "turntablism or DJing/Emceeing". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callanc1 (talk • contribs) 19:51, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Photos

I think one potential edit could be swapping out some of the images to include women. For example, the one of the b-boy could be a b-girl instead to at least reference women's involvement in hip-hop. Saragogo (talk) 20:00, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Diversification: Delete or Rewrite

This section should be re-written to talk about the diversification of the sub-cultural philosophy and activities; how it diverges between American regions (LA, Mid-West, NY), between world regions (France, Japan, Brazil, Ect.), between class/income level, between races, and generations of participants. Even more in depth, would be to talk about how it has evolved in each of these sectors over time. This section as it is currently published seems to primarily focus on the diversification of hip hop music (MCing, and DJing) which is too focused for the purpose of the article. This article aims at the broader idea of hip hop and it's various elements and this section should aim to uphold that thesis. Even as the article stands, it appears non-neutral. There are numerous statements made which are not grounded with citation. Many of these same statements lack proper grammar and use loaded language to describe points which seem only vaguely related to the topic of "Diversification."

This section could also be useful for redirecting people to articles pertaining to gang culture, beatboxing, ect. Saveone (talk) 04:19, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I feel like this section could benefit from the inclusion or link to LGBT Hip Hop X-pert Dreamer (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2015 (UTC)X-pert Dreamer

Along with diversification, it should be noted that the first paragraph of this topic should include Afro-Caribbeans as well as Puerto Ricans. --DreaNan (talk) 20:08, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Bboy and Bgirling

Hey I know it may seem redundant but I think it would be a good idea to link both bboying and bgirling to the break dancing page rather than just bboying.

Caitlinbarrett19 (talk) 20:34, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Miss Infromation

This article states that the Hip Hop movement was created by youth in the South Bronx but there are many discussion and debates on the exact location Hip Hop was created.Zpatschke (talk) 20:36, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes i agree, there were far more than youths involved in the creation of hip hop. Clarification of theis would help with confusion. Laura Burgher (talk) 21:02, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, the article also makes the assumption that women were not involved in this. I Laura Burgher (talk) 21:04, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

What about the MC's

All the distinctive elements of Hip Hop are mentioned according to the article, but what about MC's the University of Illinois has a whole article to be used as reference Bpulver (talk) 21:46, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

B-Boying

Hello! In the section regarding "B-boying" I think it would be beneficial to include both "b-boying/b-girling". Although this may seem as a small difference, especially since b-boying is usually only recognized in the terms of a male-dominated field, there are many women that are b-girls. -- Alyssa DeBenedetto 20:19, 23 February 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adebenedetto4 (talk • contribs)
Agreed. The article barely mentions b-girling under this section (besides adding "(or girl)" in one place)... I think a problematic assumption is being made here about b-boying being specifically the only default/valid expression of breakdancing, since b-girling is barely included. Also I agree with the "link to breakdancing" suggestion above, I think that would add a great deal of validity. Llamainpajamas (talk) 21:49, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

The Ghetto Brothers

I feel having more information on who the Ghetto Brothers were, (when regarding hip hop culture) is important because not everyone will be aware of who the Ghetto brothers are, or what impact they had on Hip Hop culture. The following link would be a good article to link/share with readers: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-ghetto-brothers-pioneers-of-hip-hop-culture-get-album-reissue-20121120 RosalinaLopez. (talk) 02:41, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Women in HipHop

Hey! It seems that there is really only men talked about throughout this wiki page. What about some women influences that helped shaped this culture? B-girling, women graffiti artists, even women beat boxers.

K00k004puffz (talk) 19:55, 23 February 2016 (UTC) Kasey Cover

Hi! I completely agree. This article does not really talk about the influence that women had on hip hop in it's beginning or now. From graffiti artist Lady Pink to group Yo! Majesty, this article does not mention how important and ground breaking the women were. --Canarycage (talk) 20:05, 23 February 2016 (UTC)


: I agree as well! I think there needs to be more emphasis put on women in the hip hop community. In the beatboxing section, there is NO mention of women at all. I found this recent article that talks about Grace Savage, a female beatboxer in the UK. I think she is an example of a woman who should be added to the article.

Grace Savage --Janey3597 (talk) 20:28, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

: : More emphasis on the female influence on hip hop can improve this article. It would be useful to put more information on the different types of women who exist in the non traditional side of hip hop culture. Some of these women are described by Imani Kai Johnson in '[1] From raunchy aesthetics to females with a more masculine appearance and self expression. I think it would be very useful for a person searching for all there is to know about the hip hop culture to gain knowledge on some the different issues that affected hip hop and the people immersed in that culture. More information on the impact that challenging normative social values such a race, gender, and sexuality intersectional approach) has influenced hip hop culture.


Stephanie Lisset (talk) 03:13, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Modern women in “hip-hop” Today people are hyper critical of how women display their sexuality in their music. Beyonce and Nicki Minaj are among the most well-known and popular women in hip-hop. Nicki Minaj is constantly criticized for speaking about her sexuality and sexual attraction towards women but then belittled for it not being “authentic” enough. In a Savannah Shange article Shange says, “How much pussy do you need to eat” to be considered queer. Part of how Minaj displays her sexuality is a performance but that does not mean it is any less authentic. Also, there’s an ongoing debate as to whether a woman displaying her sexuality and being sexual is part of conforming to the patriarchy or just women having the free will to express themselves and embrace their bodies.

  1. ^ 'From Blues Women To B-Girls: Performing Badass Femininity, Women & Performance: A Journal Of Feminist Theory.

Hip Hop Culture

I would like to add a link to the word Hip Hop Culture and connect it to another article that speaks about hip hop culture so that the reader gets another reference to another article. Here is the link: https://web.stanford.edu/class/e297c/poverty_prejudice/mediarace/socialsignificance.htmBeandys (talk) 01:36, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

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9 elements

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=9+elements+of+hip+hop suggests that the culture had 9 elements, why are only 4 mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.159.1.78 (talk) 06:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Urban Dictionary isn't a reliable source. We go with what the reliable sources say. -- Irn (talk) 11:24, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
Who is talking about urban dictionary?? It gives 2 other sources. These are not the ONLY sources - stop setting up a straw man and answer the questipon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.159.1.78 (talk) 18:48, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
There's no straw man; I answered your question, and I was responding to the link you provided, which is from Urban Dictionary.
Again, Wikipedia uses information found in reliable sources. Urban Dictionary is not a reliable source, neither is TempleofHipHop.org or a KRS-One song.
If you have reliable sources that say that hip hop culture is composed of nine elements, we can discuss those and perhaps change the article accordingly. However, at this point, the reliable sources we have name four elements. -- Irn (talk) 19:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

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This entry was very thorough and informative. I liked how they covered all aspects of Hip Hop along with the foundation and criticisms. I also like how the pioneers of Hip Hop were well covered and included their significant contributions. I feel more attention could be presented about the various other musical genres that have been greatly influenced by Hip Hop. The popularity of Pop, RnB, House, EDM, and other genres can be directly correlated to the influence and popularity of Hip Hop over the years. These genres usually share a lot of the same fans.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 8.41.197.223 (talk) 17:52, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Two articles

This and hip hop music need to be merged at some point. Most of the other article could be incorporated in the history section this one, maybe leading to a new History of hip hop article.Zazaban (talk) 00:04, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as the hip hop music article (as it stands right now) is basically already a History of hip hop article, then I agree with this. The history parts of hip hop music and hip hop could be made into History of hip hop and the few remaining bits of hip hop music could be merged into here. Ideally, eventually, there should be separate hip hop and hip hop music articles, but it's a big mess at the moment, so merging would be the best way to start sorting it out. Crateescape101 (talk) 22:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
The best move right now would probably be just move hip hop music to History of hip hop, since that's basically what it is, and add non-history stuff (which, as far as I can tell, is nothing) to this article, and other such stuff, afterwards. Some of he stuff here could go there, for example.Zazaban (talk) 23:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Sounds good. Crateescape101 (talk) 00:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Hip Hop and Hip Hop music should be left alone as is. Hip Hop itself as a culture involves Hip Hop music, however because of the deeprootedness in the musical aspect as well as the technicalities, Hip Hop music deserves its own seperate page to cover the vastness of its gradual evolution. Merging them both together would only create disorganization in the content leading to confusion and chaos. The Hip Hop page serves its purpose by offering a general scope of Hip hop itself while Hip Hop music goes further in depth within the technicalities and history of music rather than just the culture. Kevbebreezy (talk) 02:18, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

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New book on hip hop in Eastern Europe, Balkans, Russia, etc.

Hip Hop at Europe's Edge: Music, Agency, and Social Change edited by Milosz Miszczynski and Adriana Helbig, 2017, Indiana University Press - "Albania, Bosnia, Estonia, Russia, Siberia, Turkey, Poland, Serbia, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic (including in and outside the Roma community)." per Chronicle of Higher Education Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 17:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 7 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus (non-admin closure) - Yashovardhan (talk) 11:00, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Hip hop → Hip-hop – “Hip-hop” is more commonly used (source). ―PapíDimmi (talk | contribs) 00:46, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Is there a better source for that than something that's ten years old? Nohomersryan (talk) 03:21, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I could go on, but it seems to me as though “hip-hop” is more widely used.
―PapíDimmi (talk | contribs) 03:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not convinced that "hip-hop" is more widely used. Your first source, which appears to be the most thorough, only discusses use of "hip-hop" as an adjective, and your other sources (with the exception of Merriam-Webster) only show that those sources use "hip-hop" instead of "hip hop". While that could be used as part of an argument that "hip-hop" is more common, it's not sufficient. At this point, all we have is one source (Merriam-Webster) saying that it's more common, and then several sources that have it as their preferred style. -- Irn (talk) 13:32, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:TITLECHANGES - "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed." I don't see any real reason from the sources listed to move this. This move would also have a wider impact on categories, projects, portals, etc, so if it is moved, it needs a 100% cast-iron rationale and support. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 16:24, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Both are equally acceptable and frequently used. Not worth all the trouble in changing it. Neither version have any difference in meaning, connotation, or recognizability. Sergecross73 msg me 19:49, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Well, according to Google Ngrams "hip-hop" is used more in English-language books, has been consistently, and is continuing to slowly pull ahead, opening the lead to almost 2-1. I believe that a 2-1 lead in English books is significant. (Some of these are results are going to be children's books about bunnies etc., but probably a relatively small percentage I'd guess.) Whether that justifies the wider impact on categories, projects, portals, etc. I'm not sure. Since a redirect is created and the rest can be shaken out in time, my guess would be yes, it does. OTOH, it is to some degree a matter of typography rather than name. If you consider it mere typography, the two names are identical in essence, and so a change wouldn't be justified. Herostratus (talk) 04:12, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
    The n-gram is tricky because it doesn't distinguish between nouns and adjectives. "Hip-hop" is much more common than "hip hop" as an adjective, and so that could distort the ratio, since this discussion is concerning the word as a noun and not an adjective. -- Irn (talk) 12:39, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
Yeah could be... I don't even know if Google Ngram gives a hit for each instance of a phrase, or just for each book that has the phrase... I'd guess the latter. In that case if "The new phenomena of Hip Hop included a whole a Hip-Hop lifestyle..." was typical (as you're saying), that'd be a hit for each format... Since the dashed version has a 2-1 edge you'd need a lot of books saying stuff like "The Hip-Hop scene was..." without ever using the term "Hip Hop" as a noun to get those results. Herostratus (talk) 14:31, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Fact listed in Google Doodle has only one source

I know PBS is reliable most of the time, but can't we have a music history-related site to cite that as well? KMF (talk) 04:32, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

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