Talk:High School Fleet: The Movie

Edit War Prevention: Director's first name

Starting this discussion because another IP editor becomes involved with the director's first name spelling. It all started when Sarcataclysmal changed the director's first name from "Jun" to "Atsushi" without a reliable source (see here). I reverted it because the reliable sources (see Anime News Network's report, Crunchyroll's report, Manga Tokyo's report, and Japan Film Database by UniJapan (a non-profit organization holding Tokyo International Film Festival)) say its "Jun" as the director's first name. Sarcataclysmal and I have an early discussion on this matter after I sent him a Level 1 warning template for unsourced information on his talk page (see here). Centcom08 (talk) 01:38, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Since Nakagawa is also attached to Date A Live IV as its director, I searched a Funimation news and it also says Jun Nakagawa (High School Fleet movie) (see here) (Note: if the link is region-locked then kindly check the archived URL here). Centcom08 (talk) 02:39, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

@Centcom08: I understand the point of the reliable sourcing, but I personally don't trust these websites to hold any amount of reliability when it comes to name romanization. I'm willing to suggest, even, that they're not better than WP:OR from any Wikipedia editor themselves; not to say that they're all wrong or all of a sudden all contemptuous, but especially when it comes to controversial topics like romanizations of people's names and whether or not they're correct, I'd lean against using them unless they state that they have confirmed it.

ANN, for example, I'm pretty sure doesn't always verify romanizations-- it seems to me that they just copy whatever their Encyclopedia has, be it correct or incorrect as it is. I've already listed prior examples; and as for the other websites, I'm willing to bet they just copy each other. For the Ya Boy Kongming! example I provided in regard to ANN on my talk page, you'll notice that Crunchyroll also incorrectly stated his name to be Osamu Honma (here), as did Funimation, CBR, and IB Times. I contacted Honma himself and asked for his romanization, and he relayed it as Shuu; and when asked to change the name on ANN's Encyclopedia, ANN's writers became directly involved in confirming it.

As for what to do then, that's why I suggested using the credits and perhaps other Japanese sources over English sourcing. Why I need to have reliable sourcing to indicate such a thing? I don't know, it doesn't make much sense to me; when Nakagawa works on a show under his Kanji name (中川淳; Gonna be the Twin-Tail!! episode 8, as "2nd key animator" (第二原画)), and later uses a mix between Kanji/Hiragani (中川あつし; episode 10, as "key animator (原画)), I would think that's enough confirmation that would be required that the name is supposed to be read as Atsushi rather than Jun. But, if the issue is then regarding the validity of if it's the same person or not-- at that point everything else on Wikipedia through these sources is questionable too. Until Shigeru Ueda confirmed that he shares the name with another director that people often mistake him for, there wasn't much of a source confirming this besides credit history and the differences in their names (上田茂, which he then started using うえだしげる; and 上田繁). And even here, I had to personally send a request for correction to ANN (email). And as much as I would like to do this for every single instance of incorrect information, I can't just keep sending out emails correcting every single website that gets a romanization wrong because they didn't bother to confirm it-- at that point, what is their reliability on the topic?

On the other hand, while not all Japanese sources list them, certain interviews and talks with/about people do list Kana readings of names, which are included in profiles that the subjects of the articles themselves confirm; for example, Hajime Ootani's Kana was confirmed in this interview in the "Profile" box. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem Nakagawa has done anything like this, very unlucky.

It really does seem absolutely needless to rely solely upon reliable sourcing for matters such as name romanization when the aforementioned credits exist. While I understand that websites make mistakes on occasion, when they're all making the exact same mistake, requiring the exact same corrections, and doing it often enough that I have my own list of corrections I've made or tried to have made to these websites, then again I question what their reliability is on the subject of dubious romanizations is besides the broad agreement that the websites are reliable. Sarcataclysmal (talk) 07:19, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I still believe that everything you add to the article should be proved because, for example, an ordinary viewer of this article might be confused as to why Wikipedia presents the director's first name as "Atsushi", but the sources say its "Jun". I'll be waiting for the other editors to give their opinion here, but I stand my case that the reliable sources that I gave about the director of this film say "Jun". Especially when the Japan Film Database by UniJapan (an organization that holds the Tokyo International Film Festival) says the director's name is also "Jun". Centcom08 (talk) 07:47, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

UniJapan also fails to provide a Kana reading as I mentioned above, so it's just as likely to be a presumed reading as the reliable website that had a literal interview with Shuu and did not once mention his first name. Sarcataclysmal (talk) 07:51, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, now I'm not sure how am I going to respond to this when you began questioning the one who manages the film festival and I believe they are Japanese so they should know how to read Nakagawa's first name better than us (by the way, you can toggle their website from English to Japanese to see the director's name in Japanese as 中川淳). Centcom08 (talk) 08:04, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Them being Japanese does not indicate that they "know" how to read the name per se. With Japanese names, it's always a guess unless you have the Kana in hand. You're right that UniJapan is managed by the Japanese, but in order for that ANN Shuu Honma interview to even happen, they had to have someone capable of speaking Japanese transcribing for them-- so it kind of refutes that point. Heck, both the English and Japanese articles for Tetsu Dezaki incorrectly named him as Satoshi Dezaki for years (even though there are interviews confirming the reading as Tetsu); this is a really weird case because I don't know where JP Wiki got Satoshi, or why English sources stuck with it, but... well, it was what it was.

So, isn't about how to read a name, it's about which way of reading the name is actually correct-- and any reading is possible until it's outright confirmed by the person, basically. Another example: a director from David Production named 菅原尚. The last name (菅原) is most likely Sugawara, but as for the first name? I couldn't tell you. 尚 can be read as Hisashi, but it can also be read as Shou, and people seem to disagree vehemently on it, but there's no confirmation anywhere in credits, online, in any sources, and so forth, and it'll stay that way until someone, or he himself, confirms the reading. Sarcataclysmal (talk) 08:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

That's not to say we need Kana readings for everything, it's not wrong to presume how a name is read since some readings are a lot more likely than others (most names are usually at least guessable? I think?), but when one reading is challenged because of a Kana credit or something, then we have to be careful about relying only on what sources suggest, given they're just as susceptible to being presumptuous, in my opinion. Sarcataclysmal (talk) 08:32, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I will wait for other editors to give their opinion since I already provided the sources supporting Nakagawa's first name here (and there is nothing much I can say other than my best weapon in this discussion are the reliable sources available) whereas you rely on the past translation mistakes of other names (with examples) assuming that it is also happening to Nakagawa's first name. And I rest my case. Looking forward for the resolution of this discussion. Happy editing, my friend! Centcom08 (talk) 08:57, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Not to sound condescending, but do you know how Japanese names work? There is no one way to read them; 淳 can be read a ton of different ways, and rare readings also exist which can be borderline-nonsensical. Of course, Jun here isn't a rare reading, but nonetheless being Japanese does not inherently mean you know how somebody's name is read. Kana readings are common for a reason.

If you're going to base this solely off of going by Wikipedia's (frankly, stupid) guidelines, then yes, it should stay as is. If you're going to do your own research rather than let people with a history of being wrong (CR, ANN, etc.) do it for you, then it should be changed with an accompanying note explaining why the sources are incorrect here.

I'm sorry if I sound rude, I am not trying to be, but after over a decade on this site it gets tiresome seeing people ignore blatantly wrong information in favour of "trustworthy" sources that in reality 3-10 people over a decade ago decided were trustworthy. 107.9.243.114 (talk) 12:01, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

And I should add that saying "you rely on the past translation mistakes of other names" is blatantly incorrect, as more was offered than that in the edit itself. He was credited with the あつし reading in numerous series & I find credits to be more trustworthy than a couple English sites with a history of being wrong & a single Japanese site. Sites where people actually research this, as "unreliable" as they may be by Wikipedia standards (again, arbitrarily decided over a decade ago by a few people), list it as Atsushi, such as atwiki, AniDB, and others. 107.9.243.114 (talk) 12:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

While I agree with your analysis, AniDB and @wiki are technically user-edited and thus unreliable by Wiki standards; though, they can be used to track credit histories through official credits themselves, yes. Sarcataclysmal (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources

@Centcom08: Thinking a bit more on this, how exactly are third-party reliable sources (ANN, CR, etc.) overruling in this case? Wouldn't primary sources (the aforementioned credits) be just as reliable for an issue such as this? I do believe my argument was misconstrued as only being about past mistakes on the citations, as the IP editor pointed out, when it is not by any means. ANN's announcement of The 8th Son? Are You Kidding Me?'s staff indicates that both SynergySP and Shin-Ei Animation are the animation studios. Or their article on Shoot! Goal to the Future listing EMT Squared as the sole animation studio. Another example is Fragtime, announced by pretty much every source as a solo-production of Tear Studio.

Most other sources (Japanese or English) will indicate the exact same information as the ANN articles, which gives reliability to the claims, but the issue is that the primary sources disagree. ANN and the other articles aren't incorrect, because that's the official information they were provided with or saw in original publications (Natalie or whatever else). The credits to The Eighth Son show SynergySP as a support studio (with Shin-Ei taking on main production); Shoot's credits list Magic Bus alongside EMT Squared for the animation; and Fragtime was co-produced by Tear Studio and East Fish Studio. By the logic of not allowing Nakagawa's Kana credits (a primary source) to indicate a reading of his name, solely because of third-party sources that say otherwise, then these would be incorrect too-- which I personally don't think is sensical. Do third-party sources mean more in these cases than the credits themselves (which are overlooked by the staff of the series and films)? In agreement with the IP editor, would it not be wiser to change the name according to the primary evidence with a notation regarding the situation? Sarcataclysmal (talk) 21:15, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarcataclysmal I saw your Anime News Network's forum about Nakagawa. Now, the reason why you intend to change Nakagawa's first name is because of his tweet. Now, is this Twitter account the same person who directed High School Fleet: The Movie? How sure are you? Now, you cited in the forum the AtWiki for "Atsushi Nakagawa", but nowhere in the credited works mentions High School Fleet: The Movie. So who is this "Atsushi Nakagawa"? The AtWiki has a page for 中川淳 (see here) which has High School Fleet: The Movie credited. Which means, there are two Nakagawa's out there. Now, is Atsushi Nakagawa and Jun Nakagawa the same person or two entities? 淳 can also be read as Kiyoshi (きよし). Quoting from your forum: In Wanna Be the Twin-Tail!!, Nakagawa is credited in Kanji (中川淳) for 2nd key animation in episode 8, and in episode 10 he's credited in Kanji/Hiragana (中川あつし) for key animation. His episodes of Ranking of Kings, which he was an episode director for, credit him in full-Kana (なかがわあつし), as well. How sure are you that they are the same person or maybe a different Nakagawa who suddenly took in-charge (without going WP:NOR)? Centcom08 (talk) 21:29, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Centcom08: Assuming these pages are correct, one of them was a former PA from Madhouse who became a director-- but for some reason also wrote a few scripts? And the other one is the animator who became a director. The Tweet I mentioned was just me saying that he had the same Kanji name, not necessarily symbolizing that they are different people (just that 'atsushi nakagawa' on ANN linked that Twitter account and he named his Kanji). In this case, I think the evidence is showing that they are two different people. A picture of one of them exists online, so I'm going to contact the person who found it and see which one it seems to be for. This is going to be a significant pain figuring out which one did what and fixing across several sites. As for whether they're both named Atsushi or one is named Jun, I don't know, as only the animator seems to have any official Kana reading given on any of these series, or anywhere at all. And since there is no basis for the name's reading (assuming this director isn't the one on Ranking of Kings and... whatever else), then going with what the sources have is probably the best solution. Sarcataclysmal (talk) 00:36, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

(Btw, thank you for indulging me in this matter, these discussions bring out a lot of otherwise hidden information) Sarcataclysmal (talk) 00:37, 26 July 2022 (UTC)