Talk:Halle (Westfalen)

On 2 September 2012, it was proposed that this article be moved to Halle (Westf.). The result of the discussion was not moved.

Comments

I tried a more or less literal translation from the German entry. Some info was left out where it didn't make sense. A number of links points to the German entries. Pls. check, corrections are welcome. --Hagar66-de 11:06, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. See alternate proposal below. --BDD (talk) 16:23, 5 October 2012 (UTC) (non-admin closure)[reply]

Halle, North Rhine-Westphalia → Halle (Westf.) – Halle (Westf.), sometimes written "Halle (Westfalen)" or "Halle Westfalen", is now the official name of the town. See German Wikipedia and e.g. the school addresses on the town's official website [1]. If it were just called "Halle", I would go with the present name, but it isn't, and "Halle, North Rhine-Westphalia" is just a Wiki-invented disambiguator. Relisted. BDD (talk) 20:24, 4 October 2012 (UTC) Bermicourt (talk) 07:17, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose use Halle, Westphalia or Halle (Westphalia), per expanding abbreviations. The official website says "Halle Westfalen" on its top banner -- 76.65.128.252 (talk) 08:07, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to Halle, Westphalia. Abbreviations should be expanded and the form with the comma is usual on English Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:00, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose anything with "Westf." in it, sorry but probably also oppose Halle, Westphalia since Westphalia looks like old Bismarck era English exonym for a territory that doesn't formally exist today, and this city is still part of North Rhine-Westphalia, isn't it? The question would be does "Halle, Westphalia" exist, it may do, or would it become another awful Wikipediaism gift to the world like "Berlin Central Station" (sic) or "Prince Harry of Wales" (so cringeworthy I didn't even comment in RM) eek :( ? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:55, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Shurely (sic) you don't mean the Berlin Central Station as named by www.visitberlin.de and numerous other websites, or the Prince Harry of Wales referred to on nearly one million websites? WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is not usually a valid line of reasoning. Seriously, if it is argued that Halle, Westphalia doesn't exist (difficult to sustain since we have North Rhine-Westphalia) so it's inconsistent not to use Westphalia, then why not go with the official German name? --Bermicourt (talk) 14:35, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose any name using "Westf.", per In Ictu Oculi. I'd be happy with a name which expanded that abbreviation. bobrayner (talk) 15:59, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Whilst we may not like the look of "Halle (Westf.)" (and I personally don't) that is its official name and we are supposed to use reliable sources, not choose names based on our personal preferences. Just look, for example, at the addresses on the official town website. If I lived slightly nearer, I would photograph the signs on the outskirts with this town name on it! --Bermicourt (talk) 19:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment Halle (Saale) was moved with pretty good consensus. It makes sense to have the two Halle titles resemble each other, so I'm hoping further discussion can settle what we'd put in the parentheses. --BDD (talk) 20:24, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. German Wiki is not an RS, nor should we follow postal abbreviations. The form Halle (Saale) was taken from that city's Website. I do not see it as a precedent for adding parentheticals to the titles of other cities. This city's web site gives the name as "Halle Westfalen". (Willkommen in Halle Westfalen) That is what we should call it. There are no examples of "Halle (Westf.)" on the sites for Deutsche Welle ("Halle (Westf.)"), Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung ("Halle (Westf.)" site:www.faz.net), or Kölnische Rundschau ("Halle (Westf.)" site:www.rundschau-online.de) (KR gives the name of the city as "Halle/Westfalen" pretty consistently.) Kauffner (talk) 06:22, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Interestingly, the official North Rhine-Westphalia site lists it as Halle/Westfalen. Maybe that's a better reflexion of official German practice? --Bermicourt (talk) 06:32, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I am with IIO on not using the abrv. and would support either the slashed or bracketed Westfalen as that is the was it is spoken. Preferably the slashed version in this case. The situation is slightly different from Halle (Saale) I think. Agathoclea (talk) 06:54, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose use of the abbreviation. I would support "Halle (Westfalen)", since this creates a uniform method of disambiguation for the name and is broadly in line with both Wikipedia conventions and the disambiguation used by the authorities. --Boson (talk) 09:15, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

PS: This also serves to disambiguate from the other Halle in North Rhine-Westphalia (which probably needs an artice). I am not too happy with the German form Westfalen but I am also not happy with "Westphalia" (for the reasons given by In ictu oculi), so it's a compromise. --Boson (talk) 09:36, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Alternative proposal

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. On the first of the two opposes: there is nothing wrong per se with the old title but there seems nothing wrong with the new title either. On the second, "Halle (Westfalen)" is also used. On the supports, there is strength in using a name that is more likely to be recognised by users. Also note Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Germany. DrKiernan (talk) 13:43, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Halle, North Rhine-Westphalia → Halle (Westfalen) – Halle (Westfalen) is an accepted version of the official name; it provides a uniform form of disambiguation broadly in line with Wiki conventions and the authorities; it avoids a rather unintelligible abbreviation. (I am assuming the above discussion will be closed with a decision not to implement it). --Bermicourt (talk) 11:16, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support This seems like the best way to have consistency with Halle (Saale) without resorting to an abbreviation that is unhelpful for most English speakers. You're right about the above section; it was going nowhere. --BDD (talk) 16:21, 5 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose — Is this city not in North Rhine-Westphalia? There is nothing wrong with the name of this article. I am more incline to move the "Halle (Saale)" article to "Halle, Saxony-Anhalt." Kingjeff (talk) 01:51, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Halle (Saale) was very recently moved to that name with fairly strong consensus. --BDD (talk) 03:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Based on what? Kingjeff (talk) 04:02, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For a start it's the official name of the city. Go read the debate. --Bermicourt (talk) 05:51, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support as second choice per my comments above. Agathoclea (talk) 07:23, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support for reasons given above. --Boson (talk) 13:14, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The German press uses "Halle/Westfalen", see Deutsche Welle, Kölnische Rundschau, Berliner Morgenpost, and Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. A German slash anglicizes to a hyphen, so this title should be "Halle-Westfalen". Where does the proposed form come from? It's a postal form with the abbreviation spelled out? On Wiki, a parenthetical indicates a disambigurator, so it should be avoided here. Kauffner (talk) 16:31, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's asserted in the previous discussion to be the official name of the city. But I'm having second thoughts. See what appears to be the city site. From usage here, Halle (Westf.) seems to be more of a postal designation. Strangely, the name is more often written in camel case as HalleWestfalen—not just in the banner graphic, but in plain prose as well. --BDD (talk) 16:37, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. This is certainly not as straightforward as Halle (Saale). The German Wiki article begins "Halle (Westfalen), amtlich: Halle (Westf.)" i.e. "Halle (Westfalen), officially Halle (Westf.)". "HalleWestfalen" appears to be more of a marketing logo. "Halle/Westfalen" is also widely used, but I don't agree that it "anglicizes" to Halle-Westfalen - I've never seen that done and it would cause utter confusion with the German practice of "City-Suburb" or "Town-Quarter". And we shouldn't invent our own name for the town just because we don't like the look of the way the Germans name it! If we want a correct i.e. official name, I think we're left with 3 choices: "Halle (Westf.)" which has been rejected because people don't like abbreviations; "Halle (Westfalen)" which is proposed here and "Halle/Westfalen" which is widely used including by the official NRW site, but again folk don't seem to like the look of it! --Bermicourt (talk) 21:33, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I prefer the slashed version in this case. Agathoclea (talk) 21:39, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Unfortunately this is not trivial, of the not ideal choices I like Halle (Westfalen) best. Halle should stand by itself, that excludes hyphen and slash. The abbreviation is official, but is the abbreviation of something unknown in English. Writing the two connected in different colours can't be done. The greeting "Willkommen in Halle Westfalen" seems to give equal weight to both, not wanted. Once in the article, it can just be Halle ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:20, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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