Talk:HMS Minden (1810)

Aboard or not?

Removed from the article:

If the story that has for so long been told regarding the Minden and Scott Key is wrong then reference should be made to two letters from Keys daughter Elizabeth that state the opposite. The letters were written after Keys death and specifically mention the Minden as the ship her father was on. Key was with her until he died and staying at her home. There is much speculation and a lot of research that is current and shows otherwise. I ask you then why would Elizabeth mention the Minden? I suggest that despite what has been discovered that her statements in these letters is oral history and compelling evidence. One would think that the daughter of a then already famous man would have been told in detail the events of those days when the anthem was written. She states "the Minden was the ship my father was on". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matthead (talk • contribs) 18:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

None of the reference material I have places the HMS Minden in the Chesapeake at the time. Can anyone place the HMS Minden anywhere near Baltimore, either as part of RAdm Cockburn's initial force, or as part of VAdm. Cochrane's larger force? I contend that Key, Skinner and Beanes were on a Chesapeake Bay Sloop that was leased by the US Government for use by Skinner in his prisoner exchange efforts, the actual name of the sloop used for this excursion is unknown, but if it were named 'Minden', that would explain this confusion. --TCav (talk) 19:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

In Adm. Cockburn's biography by Capt. James Pack, OBE, RN, "The man who burned the White House", the only reference to Francis Scott Key is as follows:

"One person who had no doubts that Baltimore was an American triumph was Francis Scott Key, the Georgetown Lawyer, who had witnessed the attack from a sloop bearing a flag of truce. He wrote a patriotic poem which was set to music; it became celebrated as The Star-Spangled Banner."

In the same book, the only reference to the HMS Minden is in regard to its partipation in the exiling of Napoleon to St. Helena.

--TCav (talk) 01:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Type "Noyes Lincoln 1863" in the Search box of The Library of Congress America Memory images at this address http://memory.loc.gov/ . The letter to Abraham Lincoln talking about the Minden being a "flag of truce" is the very first one. Click on Transcription for the text of the letter.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 23:59, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

1812 war role

@Veritas Accuratus: has made substantial good faith sourced changes to the article: see [1] which I have adjudged not to be to the norms of article presentation, Manual of Style, due weight etc, the immediate AGF unintended effect being disruption to the article. To manage I have WP:BOLDly chosen to revert and raise a discussion here as which leaves the article undisrupted but indicates the 1812 war role is disputed. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 19:13, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@Djm-leighpark. Sorry, a sudden death in the family has delayed my response. I am indeed a ‘newbie’ to Wikipedia editing and upon more careful research on 'the norms of article presentation, Manual of Style, due weight etc.’, I can see where I made some unintended faux pas and blunders which unfortunately did disrupt the article. I heartily apologize for the consternation it caused. The major core of the material that I presented was totally correct and the citations given were meticulously annotated.

One important reference that I left out, that could have better established the premise about 'the Minden in the Chesapeake' being a myth, was the book “Chesapeake Legends and Lore from the War of 1812” by Ralph E. Eshelman & Scott S. Sheads. 2013, The History Press. In the chapter “Maryland Western Shore”, on pages 72- 74 is a section titled “HMS Minden: A Case of Mistaken Identity”. It gives a brief history of how the story started and changed over time. The research that I did (not primary research but referencing published sources from authoritative scholars, books, almanacs, articles, etc.) got into much more detail about where exactly the Minden was (in the East Indies) during that whole period.

In my last sentence I was trying to end on a positive and complimentary note but, in effect, stated my opinion, which didn’t belong in a Wikipedia article. In fact the last four or five paragraphs could have been left out.

I had contemplated how to present the material, and came to the conclusion it needed it’s own section. I also though it could use a separate article which could present much more material from all sides, but wasn’t sure how to proceed or what to title it.

For the time being, I propose a minimalist approach. The current questionable paragraph reads: “Minden saw service during the War of 1812 in the Chesapeake Bay. [6] Some accounts state that Francis Scott Key was aboard Minden when he wrote the poem ‘Defense of Fort M’Henry’, which became the lyrics for ’The Star Spangled Banner’. [7][8] .”

The first sentence is flat-out wrong - and the reference given "[6]" does not support the claim. In the book cited, “The War for all the Oceans”, It is NOT referring to "HMS Minden“ or to ANY British ship. It is using the name ‘Minden’ for the small American flag of truce vessel that Key and Skinner sailed out from Baltimore on to find the British fleet at the mouth of the Potomac River. It then says “for the time being they all had to stay on board a frigate … Once the fleet neared Baltimore they were allowed to return to the Minden, with a guard of marines, from where they witnessed the bombardment.” This parallels the account given in Benson J. Lossing’s book "Lossing’s Pictoral Field-Book to the War of 1812” (1868). In it he wrote:

“The President granted him (Key) permission, and, in company with [Colonel] J. S. Skinner, he went in the cartel-ship Minden, under a flag of truce. They found the British fleet at the mouth of the Potomac, preparing to attack Baltimore. Cochrane agreed to release Beanes, but refused to let him or his friends return then. They were placed on board the Surprise [frigate}, where they were courteously treated. The fleet sailed up to the Patapsco [river], where they were transferred to their own vessel, but with a guard of marines to prevent their landing and communicating information to their countrymen. The Minden was anchored in sight of Fort M‘Henry, and from her deck the three friends saw the bombardment of that fortress which soon ensued.” … “It was during the excitement of the bombardment, and when pacing the deck of the Minden with intense anxiety between midnight and dawn, that Key composed that song – 'The star-spangled Banner'":

• While the statement in the article is wrong, It is true that some have made that claim. I am therefore changing the wording in that paragraph to read “Some accounts claim that Minden saw service during the War of 1812 and that Francis Scott Key was aboard her when he wrote ……”. I am dropping the non-supportive citation but am adding another citation which does make that claim. It is from Bayard Taylor’s book “A visit to India, China, and Japan in the year 1853”, first published in 1855.

I am also adding a single paragraph that chronicles where Minden was during this period (1813-1815) and adding a few citations that directly support it (without giving the lengthy quotations that I included in my original added section). Veritas Accuratus (talk) 19:39, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@Veritas Accuratus: I am not in good standing on Wikipedia at the moment and not in greatest of places to advise or suggest so please not follow my example. I got way too flowery on the dead citation recovery - a bad example for a newbie who has some undoubted skills. At a glance, I must repeat glance, your recent edit appeared to be much more in style and keeping. I was trying to illustrate about a citation style and WP:LINKROT dangers but have totally failed to illustrate anything in a coherrent way but I think I recovered some really useful citable content. I may return to this on a later day - trying to parallel process too much at the moment. Thankyou. If I leave you confused that can be normal for me.Djm-leighpark (talk) 23:57, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@Djm-leighpark. Thanks for your response and for your candor. Confusion for me tends to be normal. :) Veritas Accuratus (talk) 02:57, 31 August 2021 (UTC)