Talk:Gunnor

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Year of birth

The birth year of c.936 implies an unusually long life of 95 years. The French Wikipedia gives c.950. Which one is more likely to be right?--A bit iffy (talk) 01:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pipera (talk) the problem with the 850 scenario she would have been 12 - 13 when giving birth to her first son which is highly unlikely. — Preceding undated comment added 04:30, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Apparently academic sources disagree with you.

Places of Contested Power: Conflict and Rebellion in England and France, 830-1150, Ryan Lavelle, page 204,"Countess Gunnor of Normandy (c.950-1031)".
The Bayeux Tapestry: And the Battle of Hastings 1066, Mogens Rud, page 100, "Gunnor ca. 950-1031".
Normandy Before 1066, David Bates, page 150, "Richard I was long outlived by his widow Gunnor ( c . 950 - c . 1030 ) , who had previously been his mistress" --Kansas Bear (talk) 00:32, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Location of Gunnora's family

Gunnora's family are first described in the article as having settled in the Pays de Caux, which is in eastern Normandy. Then it is said that they "held sway in western Normandy". Which is it? Zoetropo (talk) 00:04, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(A late response) The two are not mutually exclusive if they represent different timepoints. Agricolae (talk) 22:41, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry that this is two years late - but my name is Christopher Crepon and I live in Connecticut. Gunnora's family today is comprised by myself and only about 10 other persons in the United States. Worldwide, there are fewer than 100 of us. She does have a curious past. The entire way our family name, Crepon, came about .. is pretty murky. Is the village named after our family or the other way around? What was Gunnora's name , if any "surname" existed, or her father's name in we presume Denmark?

24.2.173.227 (talk) 19:10, 17 June 2016 (UTC) Christopher Norman Crepon[reply]

Your family was named after the village. There is no genealogical continuity between Gunnora and her brother Herfast of Crepon, who held the village, and later people named Crepon who were from the village. Agricolae (talk) 03:12, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the surname de Crepon at least to the article body?

Hey, it's Chris Crepon here again. I'm just thinking I should add or rather change Gunnora's name from simply 'Gunnora' to Gunnora de Crepon in the body of the article, or write it maybe as an alternative. de Crepon or Crepon was once of the first surnames ever in European history, because Normans began this tradition of inheritable surname... And I know that Gunnor's name was Crepon, Gunnora de Crepon 73.114.18.222 (talk) 15:22, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Except it wasn't. Surnames were not this early, and though her brother was 'of Crepon', there is reason to believe this was not his place of origin, but property he received from the Duke after becoming his brother-in-law (or at least brother of his mistress), so Gunnora was never 'of Crepon' at all. Agricolae (talk) 03:09, 21 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pipera (talk) (talk) The de Crépon family has its origins at Sauqueville,nearArques-la-Bataille, Normandie,France. They were second generation French, her father was born in France and her mother was born in North Germanic tribe being descendant of the Geats. On her fathers side of the family her grandfather originally came from Scandinavia the year is unknown. They are not an original French family. I will leave you with that to ponder.

Not sure when this unsigned comment was added, but this description of where her parents and grandparents were born is entirely made up. The identity of her parents and more remote ancestors is entirely unknown, and hence we do not know where they, individually, were born. Agricolae (talk) 22:38, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 27 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move. Cúchullain ^t/c 17:58, 6 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gunnora → Gunnor – White, Keats-Rohan, Thompson, Searle and van Houts all prefer this form, only Crouch uses Gunnora. Agricolae (talk) 23:32, 27 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Srnec (talk) 00:18, 1 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Duke/Duchess

According to university sources, Richard and Gunnor are referred to as Duke and Duchess. Per:

"...on the marriage of Duke Richard I (943-96) and his former concubine Gunnor(d.1031)."^[1]
"...Beatrice was a niece of duchess Gunnor, wife of duke Richard I..."^[2]
"The new Norman counts who emerged from the 1020s onward were kinsmen and vassals of the duke; many were connected with the families of Duke Richard I's widow, Duchess Gunnor.."^[3] --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:48, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to The Earliest Norman Counts, David Douglas, "The English Historical Review", Vol. 61, No. 240 (May, 1946), pp. 129-156,

"In official documents the style of count of Rouen does not seem to have been used, but the designation of count, or of count of Normandy or the Normans was constantly employed. Richard I (942-96) in a charter for Fecamp styled himself count and consul, and between 1006 and 1025 at least nine charters by Richard II spoke of their author as count.", page 130.

Douglas continues to refer to Richard I as duke...

"Similarly, the word comes was clearly not used as a territorial title of honour in the charter of 968 whereby Duke Richard I exempted the lands of St. Denis from exactions...", page 130.
"The assertion that the original grant was made by Duke Richard I and not by Duke Richard II is not only contradicted by Robert of Torigny...", page 134.

With this information and the previous sources presented, I see no need to removed Duchess, for Gunnor, or Duke for Richard I. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:53, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And another:

"...present a picture of Norman aristocratic lineages stemming from the sisters and nieces of the Duchess Gunnora, wife of Duke Richard I...",^[4] --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:15, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mistress, Concubine, Common-law wife:

The Norman custom of taking a wife did not require a Christain marriage or even a marriage ceremony. The description of Gunnor as a mistress or concubine is:

from a specific cultural or religious point of view only - Christian religions.
is not properly sensitive to the cultural practices and religious view point of her people - and their common practice of the time with regard to taking a wife.
both mistress and concubine are arguably incorrectly used, from a language point of view, since both refer to a women having a relationship with an already "married" man.
One could argue that Gunnor and Richard were married in the eyes of Norman culture, but not in the eyes of the Church. Their Christian marriage of 968 was to satisfy the second.
If you don't accept that they were married - then you could consider using the term "common law wife" to refer to Gunnor before the Christian marriage.
The Latin term 'more danico' used to describe their marriage mean 'according to the Danish custom'. They are recorded in history as married according to the Danish custom.

Just a suggestion for discussion. posted by StiofanÓ Nov 2024.

References

^ van Houts, Elisabeth (2019). Married Life in the Middle Ages, 900-1300. Oxford University Press. p. 79.
^ Farrer, William; Clay, Charles Travis, eds. (2013). Early Yorkshire Charters: Volume 8, The Honour of Warenne. Vol. 8. Cambridge University Press. p. 42.
^ Chibnall, Marjorie. "England and Normandy, 1042-1137". In Luscombe, David; Riley-Smith, Jonathan (eds.). The New Cambridge Medieval History. Vol. 4, C.1024–c.1198, Part 2. Cambridge University Press. p. 196.
^ Holt, J. C. (1982). "Presidential Address: Feudal Society and the Family in Early Medieval England: I. The Revolution of 1066". Transactions of the Royal Historical Society. 32: 203.

[1] van Houts, Elisabeth (2019). Married Life in the Middle Ages, 900-1300. Oxford University Press. p. 79.

[2] Farrer, William; Clay, Charles Travis, eds. (2013). Early Yorkshire Charters: Volume 8, The Honour of Warenne. Vol. 8. Cambridge University Press. p. 42.

[3] Chibnall, Marjorie. "England and Normandy, 1042-1137". In Luscombe, David; Riley-Smith, Jonathan (eds.). The New Cambridge Medieval History. Vol. 4, C.1024–c.1198, Part 2. Cambridge University Press. p. 196.

[4] Holt, J. C. (1982). "Presidential Address: Feudal Society and the Family in Early Medieval England: I. The Revolution of 1066". Transactions of the Royal Historical Society. 32: 203.

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