Talk:Greece–Turkey relations/Archive 6

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Archive 6

Article cleanup: so far and plan

Hi everyone

As some of you may have seen, I've been making some changes the last week and a bit. To catch you up and in summary:

• I moved all the news items that dominated the page (and headings) and collapsed them under history, removing headings after evaluating the items
• I moved some of these items under a new heading "current diplomatic relations"
• I moved all history before the creation of modern Greece under a new heading called "Background"
• I added a section giving a historical overview of the region under the heading "background"
• I removed the duplicate Diplomatic headings, cleaned up the one remaining and also did some minor cleanup on the sports relations
• I've expanded, rewritten, and done a thorough source evaluation for the section Byzantine–Göktürk relations which was badly needed, not the least back it was completely violating copyright of a book (I only realised this yesterday when evaluating the sources for my own rewrite due to a copyright alert) and was presenting the narrative incorrectly and without the neutrality I think we want on a topic like this.
• I'm in the midst of expanding, rewriting, and adding more sources where relevant for Byzantine and Seljuk-Ottoman relations
• I've tripped over twice on copyright: one was in these talk page and I thank @GGT for alerting me on my error of quoting such a large section of an article. Another was on my contributions for the Gorturk section which largely was my inexperience in being able to write narrative in my own words with sources. It's been a good lesson, thank you @Diannaa. The revisions I worked on over the weekend have now been added to the article.

My plan going forward so that you are aware of my future activity without catching you by surprise and for you to get involved:

• Continue reviewing all the existing content currently under "background", "history" and "current diplomatic issues". I imagine there will be some significant work done here to add sources, improve the narrative, and expand on the history. As we are about to enter some topics that are tense and will require rewrites and given I'm still learning how to write the content referencing sources so sensitive now to close paraphrasing, I want to ensure this is done in a productive way and I ask for your feedback on how best to do this
• Rename the headings. As the content gets curated, it may make sense to change the headings. I've already started a discussion on this above so your feedback is also requested
• Change the lead. Once the above is done, I would like to curate the lead. This is how I started and the discussion ended up opening other issues, so I'm holding off on this as I think the page clean up will help drive this later.
• That timelines...something needs to happen with it.

Thank you to everyone in their comments so far and I hope you appreciate what I am trying to do is in good faith which is why I'm writing this update. Elias (talk) 21:04, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I have no doubt you are making the changes in WP:GOODFAITH. Τhank you for that. You took the time to update a politically sensitive article which hardly was worked upon for a long time and I wished I had seen this kind of constructive approach in the WP:BALKANS topic area more often, considering that this topic area is notorious for its edit wars. I am not familiar with the updated structure in Greece-Turkey relations but will get used to it, soon or later! What matters however is that the article appears to be tidier now, and the readers can find the information they seek, easier. Your efforts are appreciated! --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 13:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, a complicated topic for sure. Now that the article has been cleaned up to look more respectful, I'm trying to go through this section by section, sentence by sentence. Trying to find new sources on JSTOR to support some important statements so my edits may be less frequent for now.... a thought I keep coming to is its amazing how much the past helps explain today's news.

My focus right now is on the 1453-1820 period. If anyone is interested in researching specific issues with me, let me know: I have a growing list! Elias (talk) 23:34, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi everyone, as an update I've been doing a lot of reading and thinking of how to restructure the 1982-2021 section. It's a lot more complicated! Going to take some more time and probably not start any edits until later this month.

Here is a three sentence summary of what I think about the period

• I think this could be used to introduce the "current diplomatic issues"

Greece and Turkey since their formation have used real and imagined trauma of each other to justify their nationalism. Yet, Greek-Turkish feuding was not a significant factor in international relations from 1930 to 1955 and during the cold war decades, domestic and bipolarity politics limited their competitiveness. However by the mid 1990s and decades to follow, the restraint on their rivalry was removed and both nations had become each others biggest security risk.

• For Turkey, in the 1990s their biggest security issues were Kurdish separatism and encirclement. For Greece, Cyprus and the Aegean.

Here is a one sentence summary of the period

The historical unresolved issues Greece and Turkey have had with rights in the Aegean sea as well as Cyprus become intertwined with the security realignments in the region following the cold war and 9/11, the issues of other Balkan nations, Turkey’s relationship with the EU, and increasingly energy politics of the Caspian sea and the discovery of gas deposits in 2010 in the eastern Mediterranean.

This is the outline I've developed. Your feedback is requested. My goal is replace all the current news event under this outline, and for the items not covered in the outline to make a reference as bite-sized sentences.

• There has been threats of confrontation
  • 1986 Evros River
  • 1995 Imia
• Reproachment
  • Öcalan capture: was a diplomatic crisis that actually led to improve relations
  • Earthquake diplomacy
• Historical issues of the Aegean and Cyprus are getting more complicated
  • UNCLOS III (1982, 1994)
  • Cyprus: S-300 crisis and EU accession
• Realignment of nations post cold war involving other nations
  • Strategy of Encirclement
• The EU is now involved
  • Greece’s leverage
  • Turkey’s accession had them rejected and a resulting impact in Turkey’s domestic politics
    • Blue Homeland is the result
• energy politics
  • discovery of natural gas in the eastern Mediterranean (2010) is raising the stakes
  • the geopolitics of the Caspian Sea is going to make this part of the world a lot more noticed

Some sources guiding the above narrative I've created

• https://www.worldcat.org/title/war-in-the-balkans-1991-2002-comprehensive-history-of-wars-provoked-by-yugoslav-collapse-balkan-region-in-world-politics-slovenia-and-croatia-bosnia-herzegovina-kosovo-greece-turkey-cyprus/oclc/1146235450
• https://www.worldcat.org/title/mediterranean-security-into-the-coming-millennium/oclc/761402684
• https://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-security-in-the-21st-century/oclc/938611741
• https://www.setav.org/en/analysis-greek-security-policy-in-the-eastern-mediterranean/ Elias (talk) 00:39, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

As previously communicated, I've now completed a draft that covers the period 1982-2021. For context, I worked on it this month as a writing project for a course I did with The Economist. It now needs editing to better match the tone of the article but 95% it's final. My goal is also comb through the 1982-2021 section and try to incorporate existing sources and items into this draft. Everything comes from sources but I need to go through the motions to reference.

While I work on the above, I would appreciate feedback as it's going to be a major re-write. Elias (talk) 10:59, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello -- here is an update to keep you in the loop on edits.

Headings are now the following

2 Background

2.1 Historical overview of the region

2.2 Byzantine and Göktürk relations: 6th–7th centuries

2.3 Byzantine and Seljuk-Ottoman relations: 11th–15th centuries

2.4 Ottoman and Romioi/Rum relations: 1453–1821

2.5 Formation of Greece: 1822–1832

2.6 Kingdom of Greece and Ottoman Empire: 1832–1913

2.7 Formation of Turkey: 1914–1923

3 History

3.1 Initial relations between Greece and Turkey: 1923–1945

3.2 Post World War II relations: 1945–1982

3.3 Third Hellenic Republic and Republic of Turkey (1982 constitution): 1982–2021

3.3.1 Positive relations

3.3.2 The Aegean conflict

3.3.3 Cyprus and the EU

3.3.4 Energy pipelines

3.3.5 Other events

4 Contemporary issues

4.1 Aegean Sea

4.1.1 Incidents

4.2 European Union

4.3 Illegal immigration

4.4 Minority rights

4.5 Disaster diplomacy

4.6 Turkey's domestic political issues involving Greece

Changes

• The above are the headings as of today to reflect the content, the culmination of three months of work on this page. All content now sits under three main headings: background, history, and contemporary issues. This distinguishes history before the formation of the modern nations and also provides a place to analyse unresolved issues. Everything in background and history has been written, sourced or otherwise reviewed by me.
• 1982-2021 section has now been implemented, a complete re-write replacing news events with analysis. While I did this with all the previous periods as well, this was much more heavily researched by me. It has recent perspective to make this article something to be proud of as it's taking in the latest of journals. I still need to add more sources but the text I'm now happy with.
• All news events that I could not incorporate are under the "other events" sub-heading and which I'm still reviewing. I've deleted a lot of items that when I checked out were not notable or credibly sourced.
• added an introduction to contemporary issues that I previously wrote in this talk page.
• created the headings "Minority rights", "illegal immigration", and "Turkey's domestic political issues involving Greece" which cut the "other events" in half
• Removed text in Aegean sea section so that is it more focused on un-resolved issues rather than explaining the history of the dispute which is not needed. I like how it stands now and believe we need this approach replicated in the other headings. On a related note, added a lot more main pages under headings to reduce the article size.
• I've removed the two tags on the overall article and instead put new ones in the areas still needing work. Primarily, the "other events" and all of the "contemporary issues" section.
• other minor edits but you can see that in the versioning. Elias (talk) 18:20, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I have now completed the cleanup. With the exception of the timeline section and the lede, I have reviewed and edited the entire article. Even though I removed a lot of text and news items (reducing the article size by 30,000 bytes since my last update) I tried my best to keep sources, mostly news reports, and use them as part of a narrative. Although one day it may be worth removing them all together, as journals start appearing on the topics.

I combined the section on 1982-2021 with the contemporary issues sections as this eliminated double up. I renamed some headings and did some other changes, and there is more pruning needed but the point of this post is to say I am now done on the substantive edits.

This is the current summary of content which I think when you compare to how it was before January, is a huge improvement. Without reading further, it gives you a solid snapshot of what relations are.

2 Background

2.1 Historical overview of the region

2.2 Byzantine and Göktürk relations: 6th–7th centuries

2.3 Byzantine and Seljuk-Ottoman relations: 11th–15th centuries

2.4 Ottoman and Romioi/Rum relations: 1453–1821

3 History

3.1 Formation of Greece: 1822–1832

3.2 Kingdom of Greece and Ottoman Empire: 1832–1913

3.3 Formation of Turkey: 1914–1923

3.4 Initial relations between Greece and Turkey: 1923–1945

3.5 Post World War II relations: 1945–1982

4 Contemporary history and issues

4.1 Positive relations

4.1.1 Disaster diplomacy

4.2 The Aegean conflict

4.2.1 Issues

4.2.2 Incidents

4.3 Cyprus and the EU

4.4 Energy pipelines

4.5 Minority rights

4.6 Migrants

4.7 Turkish insurgents and asylum seekers

4.8 Sports relations

@TU-nor @SilentResident @Future Perfect at Sunrise Can we please now have another look at the lede? Its been a long three months of house keeping (and house building) and its all I wanted to do in the first place! Once this is done, I want to nominate the article for good article review. Elias (talk) 06:37, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

There was a longstanding need to reduce the reliance on news reports in this article and give some more historical perspective. I haven't looked at your additions in detail, but your efforts appear to be in that exact direction. Thank you for your work. --GGT (talk) 00:52, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you: that's exactly my goal. Trying to see things holistically and explain them big picture. It's hard to read some of this history, so it may take some iterations to get the edits right. Elias (talk) 02:03, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

You did a great job my friend, have to say, thank you. Redman19 (talk) 10:12, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! Been trying my best to see things holistically to minimise bias, so your feedback is appreciated. I've still got a long way to go: the 1982-2021 history is my focus right now. Trying to find journals on JSTOR to help design an analytical narrative like in previous sections and reimagine how this section looks. Elias (talk) 08:15, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. Beshogur (talk) 11:26, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! I've been thinking, the Byzantine-Gorturk section, I think it merits the creation of a new page as this story is repeated in several pages and it could do with more expansions and more work. Elias (talk) 08:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

References

Proposal: New lead introduction

With the article re-written and in line with Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section, I want to propose the following replacement. Its using text currently in the introduction for "Contemporary history and issues".

Greece and Turkey have a long history but formal relations as nation states since 1923 when Turkey was recognised as a state. Relations exist before 1923 when Turkey is considered a successor state of the Ottoman Empire. Greece was formed in 1828 when it gain independence from the Ottoman Empire. Culturally, Greeks and Turks have had relations as early as the 6th century CE.

Greece and Turkey since their formation have used real and imagined trauma of each other to justify their nationalism. Yet, Greek-Turkish feuding was not a significant factor in international relations from 1930 to 1955 and during the cold war decades, domestic and bipolarity politics limited their competitiveness. However by the mid 1990s and decades to follow, the restraint on their rivalry was removed and both nations had become each others biggest security risk.

Control of the eastern Mediterranean and Aegean remain the basis of their rivalry. Post WWII, the UNCLOS treaty, decolonisation of Cyprus and the addition of the Dodecanese to Greece’s territory has been what unpins their turbulent contemporary history and relations. There are several issues that dominate current relations, which include territory disputes, minority rights, and Turkey's relationship with the EU and its members especially Cyprus.. Control over energy pipelines is increasingly a focus in their relations.'' Elias (talk) 06:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

References

I still object to the cut-off point of 1923. Relations between Greece and Turkey existed since 1830. The two states already were "Greece" and "Turkey" during that time, so their relations during that period are fully within the scope of this article. Besides, your current "Relations exist before 1923…" sentence is ungrammatical. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:24, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

It's valid to say relations start with Greece's formation and I've attempted to provide an argument for it (refer to the intro of the Greece–Turkey_relations#History). That said, it's also like saying Russian Empire–United States relations, Soviet Union–United States relations, Russia–United States relations are the same despite Wikipedia not doing so and are a similar scenario. It also has implications so would like to get views from people with Turkish nationality. Thank you for pointing out the grammar error, I'll propose a rewrite once we identify the consensus and any other issues. I assume you are ok with the rest of the rewrite, thank you for your input. Elias (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

@GGT @Beshogur @TU-nor @Redman19 would you please share your perspective? Elias (talk) 18:36, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Revised proposal to replace lead section, incorporating Fut.Perf. feedback and other word smithing.

Greece and Turkey have a long history. Formal relations as nation states since 1830 when Greece was recognised as an independent state by the Ottoman Empire. Turkey was formed in 1923 and is considered the legal successor (or continuation) of the Ottoman Empire. Culturally, Greeks and Turks have had relations as early as the 6th century CE.

Greece and Turkey since their formation have used real and imagined trauma of each other to justify their nationalism. Yet, Greek-Turkish feuding was not a significant factor in international relations from 1930 to 1955 and during the cold war decades, domestic and bipolarity politics limited their competitiveness. However by the mid 1990s and decades to follow, the restraint on their rivalry was removed and both nations had become each others biggest security risk.

Control of the eastern Mediterranean and Aegean remain the basis of their rivalry. Post World War II the UNCLOS treaty, decolonisation of Cyprus and the addition of the Dodecanese to Greece’s territory has been what unpins their turbulent contemporary history and relations. There are several issues that frequent in their current relations, which include border disputes over the sea and air, minority rights, and Turkey's relationship with the EU and its members especially Cyprus. Control over energy pipelines is increasingly a focus in their relations.'' Elias (talk) 19:00, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

References

I added some of the recent edits in this lead into the timeline (ie, the 1983 Blood Christmas).

No further feedback is noted. I will now replace the lead section and if it's a problem please revert. Elias (talk) 23:40, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Reducing the article size

The article as of this moment is 137,007 bytes which is 37-77k over what WP:TOOLONG suggests. It's inaccessible as the information is overwhelming. I can speak to this: it took me three months to rewrite this page. No one book covers this entire set of topics and partly why I enjoyed the task.

I've created Draft:Foreign relations of the Byzantine Empire to move most of the "background" onto another page and we can keep it to just one sentence on this page. This will reduce the page by 16k. (If people don't agree, this page has value for other reasons so not a wasted effort.) Another two ideas is we move the Ottoman and Romioi/Rum relations section to its own page, which would be another 17k and create a Greece-Ottoman relations page would be another 10k.

I think this gets is over the line at the minimum. Any other ideas welcome. Elias (talk) 05:29, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

The incidents under the Aegean dispute belong in the Aegean dispute. This would reduce the page by another 11,331. I've posted in the pages talk if the community around that article want to accept it.

The net of the above would mean 55k can be reduced from the article page. The only issue right now is I'm not sure where the Rum Millet information belongs best. Perhaps Background of the Greek War of Independence? The content itself has a concise mix that is actually very relevant to the lead up to Greece's revolution and is perfect background information. Would love to get other people's thoughts on the above. Elias (talk) 21:09, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Given the previous consensus based on the discussion in January 2022, content from 1830 only should be on this page. Now that Foreign relations of the Byzantine Empire has been created and approved , I have move the Gorturk, Seljuk and Ottoman relations with the Byzantines and will perform a summary link to that page on this article. This keeps it on the page, but in summary reduces the information overload and article size. It also will prevent future issues of an article merge. Elias (talk) 16:31, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

RfC on article coverage and length

To meet the guideline of WP:TOOLONG, I want to propose that the content from the formation of Greece in 1822 until the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire is made into a new article, Greece–Ottoman Empire relations. In effect, it uses the Treaty of Lausanne as the start of modern relations and where this article starts. The content removed will be summarised for the key points and referred to this new page. Elias (talk) 17:22, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

When I look at the article as a whole, there are long texts about the the formation of Greece and Turkey. Same thing for the history of the Greek people and the Turk. The part about Greece and Ottoman Empire does not look that long, however. That could make a new article too short. But still condense everything mentioned here in this article. Senorangel (talk) 00:12, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I believe almost all of of 1453-1821 content in addition to the 1822-1922 content could be on the same new article I'm proposing, more relevant and appropriate. Leaving also some summary sentences. It's the Turkey formation content that needs some thought... Elias (talk) 02:00, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

This is a WP:SPLIT matter, and as such is not an RfC matter. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:54, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I was just following what another editor said he expected in approving a new page after I moved other sections that had consensus from January. I will adjust accordingly. Elias (talk) 16:23, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Splitting proposal

Context There was a discussion in January 2022 on the scope of the article and its issues. Since then there has been an extensive rewrite of the article that now has it recognised in GA status. This week I've been moving content to other pages, such as the newly created Foreign relations of the Byzantine Empire in line with January's consensus and because it was also new content I wrote this year. I believe a reduction in the scope of this article will enable it to increase in quality further. I also believe this period, the content being proposed, could be expanded on further if it had it's own article.

Implications It will reduce 27k in this article to better align with WP:TOOLONG which is the main impetus. Doing so has an implicit consensus that the Treaty of Lausanne is when modern relations start between the two countries and the scope and why I'm more sensitive to how this content is split.

Proposal I'm proposing that the sections be split into a separate page called Greece–Ottoman Empire relations..

• Greece–Turkey relations#6th–19th centuries
• Greece–Turkey relations#Formation of Greece: 1822–1832: all of it
• Greece–Turkey relations#Kingdom of Greece and Ottoman Empire: 1832–1913: all of it
• Greece–Turkey relations#Formation of Turkey: 1914–1923: some of it

Separately, I believe the section Greece–Turkey_relations#Incidents should be moved off this page and live on Aegean dispute which will also reduce the article by 11k. The decision on the above combined will make this an 83k sized article.

Elias (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

I plan to cut off discussion on the 14th of May, Given I am asking for two things, and because I prefer action to talking, I will address the second and easier request now.

The section on Aegean Incidents has been copied in the Aegean dispute page. A notice in the talk page was first made May 2nd with no response. There have no comments since I announced on May 6 and no reverts since I copied it on May 7. As its been a week since my first announcement, and the content lives now elsewhere happily, I believe this gives enough notice and so will complete the task by removing it from this page. Elias (talk) 04:56, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Its been 9 days since this notice was posted and there have been no comments for or against. As this is to comply with Wikipedia's Wikipedia:Article size, I move that this is not a controversial decision and will proceed with creating the new article Greece–Ottoman Empire relations, removing the split notice, and removing duplicate content from this page. Elias (talk) 08:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Completion

Hi everyone -- I believe my work on this page is now at its end.

The content has been significantly expanded on with sources checked and added, as I've documented before on this page. The timeline has been cleaned up. The lead is rewritten. I've moved content onto two new pages to allow for more expansion and keep it to summary style on this page (Greece–Ottoman Empire relations and Foreign relations of the Byzantine Empire). The headings are now stable. I've made an attempt at improving the images on the page and could do with some more help on this.

I've nominated the article for GA review largely because I am out of ideas of how to improve it now. I will let that process determine what happens next in the absence of any other feedback. Elias (talk) 22:07, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Greece–Turkey relations/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MrLinkinPark333 (talk · contribs) 03:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello! Thank you for submitting this article to GAN. Looking through this article, I've found the following issues:

Verification issues - Small uncited parts

*Diplomatic missions: Both bullet points. Response: Citiations added for each consulate. Elias (talk) 04:38, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

*Background - Greece and Ottoman Empire relations: 1822–1923: 1 sentence in paragraph 1 and 3 Response: Two citations added and text expanded on otherwise with detail and wikipedia pages rather than uncited summary sentence Elias (talk) 23:14, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

*History - Initial relations between Greece and Turkey: 1 sentence and first bullet point in paragraph 6 Response: First sentence deleted. First bullet point now has a citation and has been merged with second bullet point to be a paragraph. Elias (talk) 23:54, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

*History - Post World War II relations: 1945–1982: 1 sentence in first paragraph, 1 sentence in last paragraph. Response: First sentence of first paragraph removed. First sentence of last paragraph has two citiations so no change and I believe this was mistaken. I presume you meant the Third sentence on Halki seminary, I've added a citation and edited down the sentence to stick to the time and facts and reduced other descriptive commentary.Elias (talk) 01:31, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

*History - Contemporary history and issues: last part of 3rd paragraph. Response: This was simply a sentence to lead into the next section but I've removed it. Elias (talk) 01:31, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

*History - Positive relations: last part of 1st paragraph. Response: There was not much of a citation issue here but language was creative hence an edit. Added a new citation. I've seen this in books like Nation, R. Craig (2003). "Greece, Turkey, Cyprus". War in the Balkans, 1991-2002 but used a BBC article instead.Elias (talk) 01:31, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

*Contemporary history and issues - Energy pipelines: Some of 1st paragraph and 3rd paragraphs. Response: Added citation to first paragraph. Removed text in third paragraph which is not needed. Elias (talk) 01:54, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

*Contemporary history and issues - Migrants: end of paragraph 2. Response: Removed text as not necessary.Elias (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Summary: While there are 10 paragraphs with small uncited parts, the majority of it is in the History sections. Response: This is because of the recent splitting of the article, summary style was employed. But you called out some good points so thank you for your review. All issues have now been addressed in this section Elias (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Verification issues - Large uncited parts

*Background: All of paragraph 1 and 2, Most of paragraph 3 Response: Paragraph 1,2, and all of 3 except the first sentence that had a citation have been removed. Elias (talk) 06:21, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

*Background - Greek and Turk relations: 6th–19th centuries: Half of paragraph 1, All of paragraph 2 Response: Added citations to every sentence, removed others otherwise. Moved other sentences in background for better and more condensed narrative flow, following the edits to address earlier citation issues.Elias (talk) 05:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

*Background - Greece and Ottoman Empire relations: 1822–1923: all of paragraphs 4 and 5. Response: citations added, the two paragraphs rewritten. Elias (talk) 05:20, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

*History - Initial relations between Greece and Turkey: 1923–1945: All of paragraph 4 Response: Removed 4th paragraph; added pages as see also. The links relate to domestic politics but are relevant as it helps explain why the nations were unusually quiet during this period (ie, intense domestic politics). Elias (talk) 05:35, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

*History - Post World War II relations: 1945–1982: Most of 2nd numbered bullet point. Response: Added a bunch of citations to this section about Cyprus.Elias (talk) 06:29, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

*Contemporary history and issues: Entire 1st and 2nd paragraphs Response: I moved up from energy pipelines that didn't really belong under that heading, removed the sentences that was giving the more high level summary of the period, adding some citations. Although I added some news reports this was only because it was easy as it needs more work for journals, but now this section should be resolved. Elias (talk) 19:28, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

**Contemporary history and issues - The Aegean conflict: The entire 1st and 2nd paragraphs. Response: I added citations to the first paragraph. I rewrote the second, mostly removing text and adding a citation keeping it to the essential information. I probably could have found more citations explaining the Turkish motivation but on reflection, better to keep it high level. Elias (talk) 19:48, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

**Contemporary history and issues - Cyprus and the EU: All of 1st paragraph, most of 3rd paragraph. Response: Citations added on all the paragraphs, text removed otherwise.

**Contemporary history and issues - Minority rights: all of 1st paragraph, most of bullet points Response: Citations added to all bullet points. First paragraph edited and citations added.

**Contemporary history and issues -Sports: all bullet points Response: Removed sectiom, moved the wikipage on footable to see also list of pages. Other content is not notable to merit inclusion and removed it. Elias (talk) 20:02, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

*Timeline: 15 events ranging from 1923 to 1999 are uncited. This is over half of the events listed (27). Response: All events have at least one citation now.

Summary: The main issue is the fully uncited paragraphs. These occur at Background (5) History (1) and Contemporary History (6), totalling 12 fully uncited paragraphs. Of these uncited paragraphs, The Aegean conflict needs a lot of citations as the 2 uncited paragraphs totals 14 sentences, while the cited sentences in this sections totals to 2 sentences. While there is also partially uncited paragraphs and uncited bullet points, I think the the fully uncited paragraphs need to be focussed on first.

Neutrality issues

While reading through these paragraphs, there is prose that is not neutral and some prose that sound like the editor is talking to the reader, which is also an issue per WP:IMPARTIAL.

Most of the neutrality issues are in the contemporary history section, as this was written based on a writing project I did that encouraged the very style of writing you are calling out. I've now addressed this as you caught most of them. Elias (talk) 07:08, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Here are some examples that I bolded: *"While Cyprus and rights over the Aegean remain unresolved, the discovery of hydrocarbons reframes their disputes. And importance." Response: Text has been removed. Elias (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

*"In 1987, a Turkish survey ship, the Simsik, was ordered to be sunk to the bottom of the Greek waters if it floated too close. It nearly did." Response: Text has been rewritten. Elias (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

*The problem has grown. Lesser incidents often occur where both sides exchange fire – which does not help when tensions fly high" Although I have not read the entire article with a neutrality check, I think this article needs to be entirely read through to see if there are any other prose that needs to be rewritten neutrally. Response: I added the citation which is what inspired this language in the first place Elias (talk) 19:25, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Reliable Sources

Looking at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, this article has citations to sources that are considered generally unreliable or self published sources:

• Generally unreliable: International Business Times, WikiLeaks, Daily Sabah,
• Self published sources: Indymedia, Worldometer.

I believe these five sources should be replaced with more reliable sources. Response: One article from each of the following were removed and rewritten if no other source supported the statement: International Business Times, WikiLeaks, Daily Sabah, and worldometer. There is no article found that links to Indymedia. Indymedia was found by alternative name of "6–7 Eylül Olayları" Elias (talk) 04:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Copyright violations

Taking a look at the images, I noticed that the following issues:

• The October 1930 photo is a copyright violation per Commons:URAA-restored_copyrights and Commons:URAA-restored_copyrights. For an explanation, any photos in Commons must have had their copyright expired in the country they were taken and the United States. For a 1930 Turkish photo published anonymously, then its 1930+70=2000 per Turkish copyright. However, per WP:URAA, this means this photo was also copyrighted in the USA as the copyright expired in Turkey after 1996. Taking a look at Hirtle chart, the USA would be 95 years making it 1930+95=2025. This is because this photo was published overseas between 1927-1977 and did not expire in the country where it was taken (Turkey) before the URAA year (1996). This is the third point under the Works Published Abroad Before 1978 section. I do realize this is a long explanation.
• I think the March 1938 photo has the same issue as well as above with still being copyrighted in the United States. While this photo is tagged to be public domain in Poland, I think this isn't correct as it was taken in Ankara, Turkey. Therefore, the same explanation above applies as 1938+70=2038.

Response: These images have now been removed from the article Elias (talk) 04:02, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Overall

With a need for a large amount of citation needed tags and the copyright violations, I will have to quickfail this GAN per WP:GAFAIL. This is also not including the unreliable sources and the neutrality issues as well. While I have not performed a full review, this article is currently failing criteria #2b reliable sources, 2c original research, 2d copyvio violations and criteria #4 neutrality per Wikipedia:Good article criteria. Please note, there has been significant changes to the article since it's nomination in April 2022, such as moving content to Greece-Ottoman Empire relations. However, the above issues mentioned have been in the article before its GAN nomination. As I have seen there has been major work on this article by editors following the GAN nomination, I think this article can have a better chance at GAN if editors go through these issues (criteria 2b, 2c, 2d, and 4) before this article is nominated again. Then, this article would be a stronger candidate to become a Good Article. I hope this review encourages you to work through these issues and renominate this article when these issues are fixed. Thank you for nominating this article at GAN :) --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 03:26, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

All the issues raised here have now been addressed. Elias (talk) 07:06, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

To-do list

@Eliasbizannes: in response to your request at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Good_articles/GAN_Backlog_Drives/June_2022, I won't be re-reviewing this article. This is because in my GAN reviews, i review every single source for verification. In this case, I do not have access to every single source. However, I am willing to check over your progress of the GAN issues I brought up and leave the following to-do list of remaining issues that need working on. For now, I'll focus on the parts that you've worked through already with the strikeouts first at Talk:Greece–Turkey relations/GA2.

Sentence citations needed

*Greece and Ottoman Empire: "Having created a separate government in Ankara" Response: Deleted the sentence, not needed. Elias (talk) 06:22, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

*Post World War II relations: "In 1950 both fought alongside each other at the Korean War" Response: Rewrote the sentence and added a citation. Elias (talk) 06:22, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Sources

*In regards to Indymedia, "6–7 Eylül Olayları" is the ref I'm referring to that's a self published source. Response: Couldn't help myself, and jumped ahead. Removed the source in question and added a few new more credible ones that strengthen the entire paragraph, slightly rewriting it.Elias (talk) 23:18, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

• I forgot to mention that the Ekathimerini source in the Migrants section has a [better source needed] tag next to it. However, I notice that's the only one of the 11 ekathimerini citations with this tag. I'm not certain if Ekathimerini in the Migrants section needs to be replaced only, or all Ekathimerini citations. There has been some discussion of whether this is a reliable source or not.

Ekathimerini is one of the main newspapers in Greece and the lead conservative voice. I believe I added that citation tag and forgot to go back to it because I though a secondary source would do a better job. Elias (talk) 07:12, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

If it's easier, feel free to strike out the Contemporary history and issues, Timeline, and neturality issues first in the GA2 review when you're ready. Then, if there's any other issues, I'll update this to-do list here. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 21:31, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

That is great, thank you. I'll continue knocking out the original issues you identified and then move onto this list after. This article this year has seen a radical transformation first by moving content around (a collection of news items mostly), and then rewriting it into an analytical narrative that follows many secondary sources I read. I found a lot of citations from JSTOR but almost all of the news reports were from before so happy to remove them. I've validated 90% of the sources so can share access if you change your mind... Elias (talk) 21:50, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

That works for me. I'm happy that you've chose to work through this list. This is the first time someone has worked through an article after I quickfailed at GAN. As for sources, I'd prefer to have someone else fully check. However, you can always send them the sources they're missing too (especially the books) if they require it :) MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 23:00, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@MrLinkinPark333 I've now addressed all the issues you've raised. Thank you for your time on this review, it needed someone to do this. Please let me know what else stands out as a problem or if we can get this article regraded. I know it could do with more work -- I'd love to remove all the news sources with secondary sources and ensure all citations match a specific page reference -- but as a baseline I believe it's a strong article now. Elias (talk) 07:19, 6 June 2022 (UTC)