Talk:God's Playground

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As an Englishman living in Poland, I am extremely interested in Professor Davies' two volumes on Poland's history. As a result, I am writing a chapter-by-chapter synopsis as I feel this will be of interest to people with a similar interest in this country. Ivankinsman (talk) 09:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Warszawa/Warsaw

Professor Davies states that Mazovian Warsaw '... was named after some long-forgotten hero or patron called 'Warsza'...' (Vol. I, p.235, revised edition). My Polish wife tells me that there is also a legend about a couple - Wars and his wife, Sava. Wars was a fisherman who was the host of Prince Siemomyslaw, lost whilst out hunting. Legend says that the prince gave the piece of land by the Vistula to Wars and his wife in gratitude for their hospitality. Sawa was a mermaid who Wars had caught and fallen in love with. They started the settlement on the Vistula that has since become Warszawa. I feel that this may be equally appropriate for the town's origins.

Though traces of settlement in the area date from the 10th century, it was not until the beginning of the 14th century that the dukes of Mazovia built a stronghold on the site where the Royal Castle stands today. Like most medieval Polish towns, Warsaw was planned on a grid around a central square and surrounded with fortified walls. In 1413, the dukes made Warsaw their seat, and it began to develop more quickly. By then, the New Town had begun to emerge to the north outside the Old Town's walls. In 1526, after the last duke died without an heir, Warsaw came under the direct rule of the king in Kraków.Ivankinsman (talk) 14:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is a shame we still don't have a decent history of Warsaw article, although I've just noticed a new article was created in January. Pl wiki has the following related articles:

pl:Historia Warszawy

pl:Wars (postać legendarna) and pl:Sawa (postać legendarna)

I'd suggest you copy the info from the above two paras to the relevant articles. No need to waste useful writing on rarely frequented talk pages.

--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kraków/Cracow

The founder of Kraków:

I have found no mention in the history of Krakow's name coming from a tribal leader called Krak, who supposedly built the town. This again is a legend and probably dates back to an age preceding written history.

According to the famous Polish chronicler, Wincenty Kadłubek, the founder of Kraków was Grakhus, usually called Krak in the chronicles. He was a legendary ruler, one of the Princes of Poland or a Warlord, who was fighting against the Gauls. After this, he was made King and had two sons, Krak II and Lech II, and a daughter called Wanda. The citizens of Kraków built the Kopiec Kraka, a huge earthern mound on the edge of the city, in honour of Krak (a kopiec is built for a hero/heroine).

The legend of the Wawel dragon:

Also, it may be worth mentioning the legend of the Wawel dragon (smok) here. This dragon lived in a cave under the Wawel and was laying the local countryside to waste and demanded local virgins as a tribute. The King offered his daughter's hand in marriage to any man who could slay the dragon. A local young cobbler, Szewczyk Dratewka, decided to use a trick. He took a ram's skin and stuffed it with sulphur, an explosive material. The dragon greedily ate the ram and, feeling the sulphur burning its stomach, drank water from the local Vistula and exploded. Szewczyk duly married the princess. Ivankinsman (talk) 14:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The legend of Wanda:

According to Wincenty Kadłubek, Wanda was the ruler of Poland after removing Krak II from the throne for killing his brother - he was eventually exiled. She was expected to marry a German prince but refused. The prince invaded Poland as a result of his injured pride but Wanda, at the head of a Polish army, repulsed him. However, in order to prevent any further invasions, she drowned herself in the Vistula river. The artist, M. Pitrowskiego, painted a famous picture of Wanda's death, and there is also the Kopiec Wandy in Kraków.

[There is the possibility that Shakespeare also knew of this tale and based Ophelia in Hamlet on Wanda. The fact that Ophelia's father was called Polonius (Poland) lends credence to this.] Ivankinsman (talk) 09:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those legends we have on en wiki:

Krakus

Princess Wanda

Smok Wawelski

--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've long wondered, might there be an etymologic connection (by adoption) between "Kraków" and "Krak des Chevaliers"? Nihil novi (talk) 08:01, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kielce

According to a legend Miezko II, son of Boleslaus the Bold, was hunting in the royal forests in the Swiętokrzyskie region of Poland. He became detached from his retinue and, becoming lost, fell asleep in a meadow. He had a dream in which he was attacked by some outlaws who poured poison into his mouth. As he started to become weaker he suddenly saw Sw. Wojciech who used his shepherd's crook to make a sign on the ground which turned into a stream. On waking, Miezko drank from the stream, regained his strength and found his companions once more.

On leaving the meadow he also noticed two huge white boar tusks (kielce). He vowed to build a town with a church to commemorate them, which is why Kielce's oldest church is the Church of Sw. Wojciech and its river is called 'Silnica' (strength).

Gózd, Swiętokrzyskie

I myself live in this village about 15km outside Kielce. Again, local legend has it that Boleslaus the Wry-mouthed was hunting here and, feeling very thirsty, drank the local water. It tasted (gust) so good to him that he had a settlement named after it. Ivankinsman (talk) 14:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly this should be added history of Kielce or history section in Kielce article.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chapter synopsis

Well... it's ridiculously long and might border on copyvio. But it should really belong to some Polish history articles, not here. It's not a fiction book so there should be no synopsis at all. You might discuss what topics the author particularly emphasized or covered in greater detail, if he offered any new insights or hypothesis. But plain recitation of Polish history is just misplaced. So move it somewhere more appropriate. I will delete the section in a week or so. Renata (talk) 00:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removed as no one volunteered to incorporate it elsewhere. If anyone wants it, it can be found in this revision. Renata (talk) 17:11, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than simply removing this - research work which I feel is of definite interest to students and others interested in the history of Poland - I have created a link from this page to a new article page incorporating a chapter-by-chapter synopsis. Ivankinsman (talk) 12:12, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Students may read the book instead of some dubious copyvio interpretations. Reading the entire book is much better for Students. Please, feel free to share your thoughts about it.--Lokyz (talk) 12:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire has its own article. Why shouldn't Davies's God's Playground? Why strangle the infant in its cradle? Nihil novi (talk) 08:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody argues that the article should be deleted. My point is that Decline does not recite chapter-by-chapter history of the Roman Empire, but instead gives overview of proposed theories, how chapters were structured, criticism, reception, impact on other works, etc. That's what this article should do too. See also WP:PLOT. Renata (talk) 12:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that the article be left in place till someone—the article's original author, or someone else—does what you describe. Nihil novi (talk) 20:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More often than not, I feel that an individual - particularly in academia - is quite often looking just for a particular period of history they are researching. By incorporating this outline, they may dip into the article into order to get the information they require on their specific area of interest. Ivankinsman (talk) 08:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Millenium [sic]

As one can see, the first parts of chapters' titles are in Polish language, which means there is no mistake in word "millenium" (writen with single "n") because this spelling is acceptable in Polish. 201.52.197.204 (talk) 10:56, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]