Talk:German Argentines

Recent clean-up

I did my best to wikify this. This has the start of a great article, but it is still very non-encyclopedic in tone. I removed 1st person references, and tried to add section headers. The information is all there, but someone with more interest and knowledge in the subject than I needs to comb through and extract the encyclopedia article from this term paper. I did all that I could. Good luck. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I saw your messages. I'm affraid I don't have the time (nor the interest) for digging into the subject, but your edits are much welcome.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Marianocecowski (talk • contribs)

Don't mind Mariano, he's always really busy here. ;P Thanks a lot for your help, I can't guarentee that I will edit the article later, but I'll at least try to improve it if I got some time. --201.253.130.244 07:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Note: originally posted at Talk:Germans in Argentina

It'd be really useful...

... to have this information added to German settlement in Argentina, first off to be consistent with the "XXX settlement in Argentina" series and also to further develop this information. If properly done, the result would be awesome, looks like someone have been doing a good job here. Opinions, please? --201.253.130.244 07:37, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Also take a look at Category:Immigration to Argentina. --201.253.130.244 07:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Note: originally posted at Talk:Germans in Argentina

references to German nationallity

For the known German-Argentines, having the category of German-Argentine doesn't mean that the fact is sourced. WEhat's more, this list, and the categories in the corresponding articles, seam to be made of people with surnames that look German, but I doubt Jorge Novak (slavic surname) or Cristian Breitenstein carry a German passport. Besides, many are really not that notable (Raúl Daniel Schmidt??) --Mariano(t/c) 21:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

You are dead wrong then. Just because you never heard of Raul Schmidt doesnt mean hes not notable Mariano, as if you research him he does have a impressive record [1]. The Germans in Argentina article shows it's sources for the famous Argentines of German descent which I took and then expanded. Cristian Breistenstein if he is not notable then I dont know who is he is the mayor of Bahia Blanca and the goverment has a page about him (might I mention he speaks Good German and Understands it very well.) [2] If these are not notable people then why do many have Wikipedia articles that even show there importance?(XGustaX 21:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC))

Jorge Novak is of Volga German descent [3], he was born in a colony of Volga German settlers in Argentina too [4]. Novak may be a slavic reform of Neumann surname and viceversa [5]. Cristian Breitenstein (breiten= of german "broad", stein of german "stone") is also of Volga German descent and is used to going to the festival of Volga German descents in Coronel Suárez too [6]. Here you may see Breitenstein surname among Volga Germans who also settled in North America [7].

Descendents

How important is the German-Argentine community? It is estimated that around 7% of the Argentine population have a German surname (including Ashkenazis). As we know, there are 1,200,000 descendents of Volga Germans. It is also known that around 60,000 Germans (from Germany) settled in the country between 1857 and 1946 (out of more than 150,000 immigrants). Many Germans settled in the country after the end of the WWII (around [50,000 in 1960 only). According to the German embassy there are between 600,000 and 1,000,000 people with German ancestry living in Argentina. So there are at least 1,800,000 German-Argentines. Note that I haven't included descendents of Swiss Germans and Austrians. The figures could be as high as 2,800,000 (7% of the Argentine population) if you include all the Germanic communities.--Elnuevomercurio 16:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I have been reading recently that up to 22 precent in total are of German descent or part German descent.[8] German-Argentines make up the third largest community in Argentina, after of course Italian-Argentines and Spanish-Argentines. I also do know that about 1,800,000 Argentines speak German. In terms of Cultural and contritubtions made by German-Argentines they seem endless, I keep finding more and more, Please read the article for more informationThanks for the information. (XGustaX 17:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

22%? Isn't it too much? The link you gave me is an official or a personal work?

By the way, shouldn't we organize the page just like the page about German-Brazilians for instance? --Elnuevomercurio 12:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems correct to me. I don't know where they got there sources from but from reading the rest of the article they got the sources right. I am from Argentina and it is very very common to hear "Soy Aleman" or " I am German" it is a very common ancestry here. However, keep in mind this does not mean they are only German this 22 percent this also includes people who are part. A common mix here to is Spanish and German or Italian and German. As for making them like the Brazilian pages, I dont know I kind of wanted to try something new and different. (XGustaX 14:58, 22 May 2007 (UTC))

I don't think we should take this essay as a reliable source. What surprises me is that he wrote Argentina's population is 22% German, the rest is comprised mostly of English and Italian biological origins. We both know it is not the truth. Argentines are mostly of Italian and/or Spanish background. German ancestry comes third but doesn't exceed 10% (I would go with 5-6%). English ancestry isn't that important either. We could send him an email to ask him where he found such figures.

Swiss Info sounds like an unreliable source to me. Hacia allá fueron en los últimos 150 años 8 millones de españoles, 6 millones de italianos, entre otras nacionalidades. These figures are overly exaggerated. From 1857 to 1940, about 3,000,000 Italians and 2,000,000 Spaniards immigrated to Argentina (many of them coming back to Europe). 1,800,000 German speakers may be an exaggerated figure as well.

Why don't we merge your article and this one into a single article? (It's not mine.) --Elnuevomercurio 12:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

However, you are looking at only figures before WWII what about after WWII when Germans came by the boat loads 250,000 each year. The figure seems right and I think you miss understood the Essay they were just talking about anyone from Argentina who was non-Spanish since the article is suppose to prove that most people from Argentina are non-Spanish descent. To say English ancestry is not that important is a vast understatment as well, here in Argentina there are tons of English schools. The reason we play polo is because of the English. The reason we have the most extensive railroad system is also because of the English. I know we have over 500,000 Irish families living in Argentina making Argentina the 5th largest Irish community in the world. We are just talking about Irish people let mind you. As for the Swiss figure those are correct because you have to realize we are talking about a a vast period not just 1880-1940 but all the way to present and all the way from all the way back to when Argentina was independent if you add up the figures they add up to about just right. Either way both figures support one another. (XGustaX 15:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC))

Right. 500,000 Irish-Argentines, i.e. 1.25% of the population. Add the Welsh community (20,000 persons), 0.05% and around 100,000 Anglo-Argentines (0.25%). British (primary) ancestry doesn't exceed 2% of the population. Of course, there has been a huge British influence in Argentina in the past (Argentina acquiring a "honorary Dominion" status) but the British immigrants to Argentina have never been numerous. I guess you should read the article about la inmigración en la Argentina. 8,000,000 Spaniards and 6,000,000 Italians? This is impossible. Could you please tell me where you read that 250,000 Germans settled in Argentina each year after WWII? (I'm not telling you this is wrong, I'd just like to read it.) By the way, have you planned to translate your article into Spanish? --Elnuevomercurio 14:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Amount of descendants

When we talk about descendants of Germans, it's important to add the ones who have come to Argentina from other countries, and not only from Germany, because those are of German descent too (even when they stayed in other countries before coming to Argentina). And then you have to do the sum.

Please, remember citizenship only refers to a person's membership in a political community, it is just a legal matter which doesn't change your ethnic group and has nothing to do with it, while ethnicity is an extraterritorial condition (which no legal matter can change).

So many German inmigrants arrived to Argentina and are recorded as Russians, Ukranians, Romanians, etc just because they didn't come from Germany. And since German Embassy in Argentina doesn't count them (they are not descendants of German CITIZENS), we have to take into account, at least, how many people of ethnic German descent the NGOs (Non-governmental organizations) have recorded.

A one of those NOGs is, for example, the Asociación Argentina Descendientes de Alemanes del Volga.

So then we do, at least, the partial sum:

• (more than) 1,000,000 Argentines of German descent according to German Embassy (those who are descendants of German citizens)
• (more than/at least recorded) 1,200,000 Argentines of Volga German descent (those who are recorded as Russians)

PARTIAL RESULT: (more than) 2,200,000 Argentines of German descent (remember this is a PARTIAL result)

And now: why do we say "more than" instead of a number? Just because we don't want to estimate how many descendants are not recorded, in order of being neutral. German Embassy and NGOs know they are "more" and say it. They know they haven't recorded all of them but count only the ones with the proofs. They don't estimate a number and we won't either.

We continue:

Did we add Argentines of German Swiss descent on that sum? Not yet.

Did we add Argentines of Black Sea German descent on that sum? Not yet.

Did we add Argentines of Caucasus German descent on that sum? Not yet.

Did we add Argentines of Danube Swabian descent on that sum? Not yet.

Did we add Argentines of Mennonite descent on that sum? Not yet.

And what about the ones of Sudeten German descent?

And what about those Argentines who are descendants of the rest of the ethnic German groups which have come to the country?

Enough: Some of the descendants of those German groups are recorded, others not. The point is to show why it is impossible to consider a minimun of 600,000 Argentines of German descent like someone has edited yesterday.

This is the reason. It is not a whim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.245.191.192 (talk) 06:29, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. But what about references? By the way I found this.

1,000,000 descendants of German citizens (German Embassy) [9] + 1,200,000 Argentines of Volga German descent [10] = 2,200,000 Argentines of German descent (only counting Germans from Germany and Volga Germans)

What about the other Germans? Up to now the minimun is 2,200,000. If you have references about descendants of other groups of ethnic Germans, we do the sum. --Chipppy (talk) 04:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

It is complicated to estimate the number of Argentines with ethnic German roots since, as it has been said, only a part of those who emigrated to Argentina were Reichsdeutsche. There are between 600,000 and 1 million descendants of Germans from Germany (60,000 Germans permanently settled in Argentina from 1857 to 1946 and around 30,000-40,000 after 1946 when the Allies had banned immigration from Germany). The main community still are the Volga Germans with from 1,200,000 to 2,000,000 descendants and we can suppose there are several hundred thousands of descendants of ethnic Germans from former Austria-Hungary. Estimating the total community between 2 and 3 millions sounds realistic to me. --Elnuevomercurio (talk) 17:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Amount of descendants of Germans vandalized by Chilean IPs

The last one is: 190.209.44.39. Please, check this. --190.245.191.192 (talk) 17:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Hermann Burmeister, an Argentine of German descent?

Ihnen? Why is Hermann Burmeister photograph placed in the infobox as an Argentine of German descent. How can Hermann Burmeister have been an Argentine of German descent when according to the page in German he was a German zoologist who had worked on and off in South America and settled in Argentina when he was 54. Burmeister was a working German scientist in Argentina most of his research were commissioned by universities from Germany – which he shared with students and academics of Universities in Latin America. The Spanish wikipedia page also clarifies in the biography of Burmeister that he "fue un naturalista, paleontólogo y zoólogo alemán, que desempeñó la mayor parte de su carrera en Argentina." I don’t think that this Project was started as part of Wikiproject Germany by someone from Europe – because in Germany anyone who has gone to school knows that Burmeister was German not a Latin American of German descent. The statistics on the infobox is completely distorted and exaggerated as well it doesn’t correspond in any way from official figures released by the German Embassy in Buenos Aires or by CENSUS analysis firms.
Bis später__C-klums (talk) 03:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Let's see: Hermann Burmeister was born in Stralsund, a Baltic city that in those times was under Swedish control. He was not German in the sense he was born in Germany, but he was an Ethnic German. Yes, he was of German descent and German was his ethnicity, too. In Argentina, he took also Argentine citizenship, which does not mean he wasn't German any more. An ethnic German holding Argentine citizenship may be surely considered an Argentine of German descent. Please, try not to revoke unless you know for sure. Chipppy (talk) 02:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Trouble with some IP from Chile vandalizing

There are troubles with some IP from Chile. They has been vandalizing this page for a long time. They remove sources and re edit old sources which are already out of date. What happens with this? See: 200.104.32.160, 190.208.86.19, 190.209.44.39, same IP vandalizing in Spanish Wikipedia [11], [12], [13], and so on.

While Chilean IP re edit old source about Germans in Argentina, they exagerate descendants of Germans in Chile [14], [15], [16], and also change numbers from Peru, eg, showing less Peruvians of German descent. Americanlurker (talk) 21:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Chippy Chippy or Americanlurker

The statistics on the infobox is completely distorted and exaggerated as well it doesn’t correspond in any way from official figures released by the German Embassy in Buenos Aires or by CENSUS analysis firms.

In the history of the page you made the following statement:

Yours is a FALLACY, because the embassy can only answer about descendants of German CITIZENS, but not about descendants of ETHNIC GERMANS.And in Argentina,like in the USA, majority were ethnic Germans.

Whilst the role of the German Embassy in Buenos Aires is to protect its nationals living there it is also involved in developing cultural and scientific relations. They also archive historical information about Germans and their descendents. The statistics of these populations is also very dynamic for example in just a few years the number of German Citizens with permanent residency in Argentina has dropped from approximately 50,000 to less than 10,000 – with many people moving to Europe, the US or Chile. The figure of Argentines of German descent is also subject to the factors that has decreased the number of Germans living in Argentina.

I support the data pointing towards an estimate of 600,000 German Argentines. It is sad and makes a mockery of this project if people are using it and one day click on this page and say “how incredible there are 3 million German argentines and then they click on to it the next day and they find the population has been reduced by 2.4 million to 600,000. (in a time of peace!).

Your issue with whom you call “Chilean IPs” is that these editors or editor is acting pretty much with your attitude. Instead of being so fixated on this German Argentine page you should start the Peruvian Argentine and Bolivian Argentine page. I would like to see them too, with the picture of the notable peruvians and bolivians in Argentina - it is only fair.

This from Cientifica1 to you: Maybe,first you should learn Spanish and watch the interview with the German ambassador in Argentine.He make it clear that they more than a million and half of german argentines(from Germany).Second as a peruvian I feel offended because we are Peruvians not argentine.Most peruvian is recent immigration that is going back to Peru.Peru is growing as a country and Argentina no.Maybe you are from Chile.People from Chile hate Peruvians and Argentina.Germany just admitted that 5000 Nazis escape to Argsntine.Is all over the web. Also all that information can be found in You Tube.You can actually watch the interview.As a Peruvian please do not put us in fights. Cientifica1 (talk) 03:46, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Anyway, you can keep fighting on how German Argentina is I am not going to be editing this page.

Plus Hermann Burmeister is not a Latin American of German descent he is a German scientist just like Albert Einstein was a German scientist even though he was ethnically Ashkenazi and became a US. Citizen. and…I rest my case.

Bis später__C-klums (talk) 03:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

What are you trying to do?

In the article about "Italians", it's said that there're about 20,000.000 Italian Argentines. In the article about them, it's said the number is 25,000.000. Now I see this article, and it gives a information of more than 3,000.000 of German Argentines, but the principal article of Germans gives about 2,000.000. Wikipedia doesn't need more lies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.58.126.40 (talk) 03:13, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

My friend, those figures are always "estimations". Please enlight us with better information if you have any. Cheers. 201.254.117.172 (talk) 22:31, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

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The following people in the list are Swiss rather than German in origin (according to name):

- Nieves Zuberbühler 
- René Strickler
- Nestor Kirchner
- Santiago Zurbriggen
- Alberto Ammann
- Federico Sturzenegger
- Facundo Arana (von Bernard)
- Natali Kessler
- Teodoro Waldner
- Alfredo Wismer
- Claudia Burkart

many more in the list could be either Swiss or German 2A02:1210:2ED3:BA00:C101:2F:46A8:E25F (talk) 22:26, 14 August 2023 (UTC)