Talk:Geneva II Conference on Syria

WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS

The article Geneva II Conference on Syria, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:

Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.

Remedy instructions and exemptions

Enforcement procedures:

Violations of any restrictions (excluding 1RR/reverting violations) and other conduct issues should be reported to the administrators' incidents noticeboard. Violations of revert restrictions should be reported to the administrators' edit warring noticeboard.
Editors who violate any listed restrictions may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense.
An editor must be aware before they can be sanctioned.

With respect to any reverting restrictions:

Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion.
Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as clear vandalism.
Clear vandalism of any origin may be reverted without restriction.
Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors that are not vandalism are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!

Map needed

It is requested that a map or maps be included in this article to improve its quality.
Wikipedians in Switzerland may be able to help!

A fact from Geneva II Conference on Syria appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 10 September 2013 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that during the weeks before the 2013 Ghouta attacks, Lakhdar Brahimi and Ban Ki-moon worked closely with Russian and US diplomats towards a possible Geneva II Syrian peace conference?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2013/September.

Wikipedia

Merger proposal of US–Russia peace proposal on Syria to this article

The phrase "US-Russia peace proposal" or similar seems to be just a media expression for the US-Russia discussions about organising a conference, of which the most concrete development is the would-be Geneva II meeting. I have already put what seemed to be the most factual, least speculative part of the US–Russia peace proposal on Syria article into this one (Geneva II).

Does anyone object to changing US–Russia peace proposal on Syria into a redirect here? Boud (talk) 23:15, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I object; the reason is that this article is a future event and its schedule not finalized. Considering recent tensions, there is a chance the conference would not happen at all. Maybe we can even merge this article into the US-Russia peace proposal on Syria, until there is a clear schedule.Greyshark09 (talk) 06:36, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've done what I can to make sense of the US–Russia peace proposal on Syria article - it seems like it was the proposal to organise a conference, and the conference is now tentatively nicknamed "Geneva II". The proposal happened, it's a past event; the conference is a proposed future event; so I guess I follow your reasoning. Boud (talk) 20:06, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your good work.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:39, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Title

The next question is the title(s). To merge them, we'd really have to wait until the conference became more likely. I'm happy to leave US–Russia peace proposal on Syria separate for now and focus on this one. A peace conference is a bit more concrete than a proposal to organise a peace conference, IMHO. My guess is that the present title is supposed to be descriptive under WP:TITLE. But in that case maybe Geneva II peace conference (Syria) or Geneva II Syria peace conference seem more accurate to me. It's true that neighbouring countries are implicated, but the conference would not try to solve all problems in the region. Any objections to

Geneva II peace conference (Syria) or
Geneva II Syria peace conference or
Geneva II conference (Syria) (The Elders source/Brahimi)

or better suggestions? Boud (talk) 20:06, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If there's consensus to change, it could probably wait until after the DYK nomination is processed - see above. This can typically take from a week to a month. The official meeting is unlikely to take place much before then (which would simplify the choice of title). Boud (talk) 23:50, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Until the conference happens there is no official name and we can end up renaming it back and forth, so let's better wait whether this conference takes place or US airstrike cancels it (in which case, we should merge it into US-Russia proposal on Syria.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:39, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions

I think it's time we get a better WP:TITLE for this article. Some of today's mainstream media give:

Reuters the talks, known as Geneva 2
Daily Telegraph Syria talks, Syria peace talks
SMH for peace talks that, says the "Geneva 2" talks, "At best, Geneva 2 will...
AFP/Googlehostednews crucial peace conference, peace talks, The so-called Geneva II conference

I don't see any sources using the adjective "Middle East" - that seems to be WP:OR (either as a common name or as a description). The sources above agree that these are "talks", only AFP (from the above list) says it's a "so-called" conference, but I only listed a few sources. Most sources seem to agree that the adjective "peace" is useful as a description. Western Arabic vs Roman numbering seems to be the biggest dispute.

Any arguments (see WP:TITLE) for or against any of the following?

Geneva II Syria talks
Geneva II Syria peace talks
Geneva II Syria peace conference
Geneva 2 Syria talks
Geneva 2 Syria peace talks
Geneva 2 Syria peace conference

Boud (talk) 00:00, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is the Second Geneva Convention actually ever called in common usage Geneva II? We could just as easily simplify it to Geneva II (or 2, whichever is more commonly used). Kinda like how Pirates 2 is a disambiguation page, but Pirates II redirects to the porn film. hbdragon88 (talk) 06:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I support changing it from "Middle East" to mention Syria...theres no one else involved here (or rather does that are do so because of Syria)Lihaas (talk) 12:28, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Lihaas reasoning.--PLNR (talk) 15:08, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hbdragon88: My worry about a short title (Geneva II) is that it's well-known right now, but in 5 or 10 years' time, there's no reason to expect people to associate it especially with this set of talks - Geneva is associated with all sorts of things, and it does sounds a bit like a film title. Also, there's no problem with having redirects in place. Boud (talk) 17:51, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I just checked the disambiguation page Geneva Conference. None of the other conferences seem to be known as "Geneva II" or "Geneva 2", but with so many conferences having been held, I think my point is still valid. In 5 or 10 years' time, someone hearing "Geneva II" and thinking of some sort of diplomatic conference will wonder which of the many diplomatic conferences at Geneva is being referred to. Boud (talk) 18:06, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - screening Google results (excluding wiki) gives the following:

"Geneva II Middle East peace conference" - 46,100 results

"Geneva II peace conference on Syria" - 263,000 results

"Geneva II Syria talks" - 16,300 results

"Geneva II Syria peace talks" - 60,100 results

"Geneva II Syria peace conference" - 43,300 results

"Geneva 2 peace conference on Syria" - 31,500 results

"Geneva 2 Syria talks" - 16,300 results

"Geneva 2 Syria peace talks" - 37,100 results

"Geneva 2 Syria peace conference" - 32,500 results

I guess the winner here is "Geneva II peace conference on Syria", second place for "Geneva II Syria peace talks", third for "Geneva II Middle East peace conference".GreyShark (dibra) 19:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Google hits are only a rough guide, and I suspect that they are biased by the existing Wikipedia article title. You said you excluded "wiki". If you meant Wikipedia, then please say "Wikipedia". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia on a wiki, but most wikis are not Wikipedia. Boud (talk) 21:46, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: Geneva II Syria peace conference

So the closest thing to consensus so far is to make a minimal change, i.e. to Geneva II Syria peace conference. Since there does not seem to be enough controversy to require a 7-day structured process, I propose that if noone objects to Geneva II Syria peace conference within 12 hours from 17:51, 22 January 2014 (UTC), that someone (me or anyone else) make the page move. Boud (talk) 17:51, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - first you cannot "shorten" processes; second your proposal doesn't seem to be common name per above Google results screening; actually current title is more implemented and "Geneva II peace conference on Syria" is the most common.GreyShark (dibra) 19:26, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - regarding the processes, see WP:RM. In the absence of controversy, wikilawyering is not needed. Boud (talk) 21:39, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The official names used by the United Nations are Geneva Conference on Syria and Geneva II Conference on Syria. Also, look at the media reports now that the conference opened and you'll immediately be convinced. Peace might not be obtained and is not the only thing discussed. What is more, it is not officially in the name anyway. Onep Mala Sawa (talk) 19:39, 22 January 2014 (UTC).[reply]
Oppose - I prefer the well-sourced Geneva II Conference on Syria. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:23, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I withdraw this proposal since there are good arguments in favour of other possibilities. Boud (talk) 21:39, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move (1)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: suspended until the above rename proposal is finalized.GreyShark (dibra) 19:58, 22 January 2014 (UTC)(non-admin closure)[reply]

Geneva II Middle East peace conference → Geneva II Conference on Syria – Geneva II Conference on Syria or Geneva Conference on Syria is the official name, as used by the United Nations and medias. It is also more accurate than the unreferenced, unofficial and too broad current title. Onep Mala Sawa (talk) 19:32, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support - For the exact same reasons mentioned. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:44, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - we already have one rename proposal above and for technical reasons we cannot have two at a time. This one is closed until the above one concluded.GreyShark (dibra) 19:58, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move (2)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Refused in favour of "Geneva II Conference on Syria" Onep Mala Sawa (talk) 20:47, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Geneva II Middle East peace conference → Geneva Conference on Syria – As found by Onep Mala Sawa, this is the official name, as used by the the United Nations. The common names are similar enough to this official name. The "II" or "2" is not needed, since Geneva I Conference on Syria is not considered to have enough material to be worth an independent article - it is presently a redirect to this article. Geneva II Conference on Syria can be a redirect. Boud (talk) 22:02, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I support Geneva II Conference on Syria as the name of the page. Your suggestion is much better than the current title, but Geneva II Conference on Syria is even better (the II is useful as the article is about the second conference). 128.178.197.59 (talk) 07:15, 23 January 2014 (UTC).[reply]
I agree that Geneva II Conference on Syria is much better. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 14:12, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
support, its more specific, common(search results) and official(used by the UN).--PLNR (talk) 15:27, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - "Geneva II Conference on Syria" seems to be the commonname. Officially UN implements "Geneva II" [1]. European Union use "Geneva II Middle East peace conference on Syria" [2]. One of those should be the main title.GreyShark (dibra) 18:04, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to be clear i oppose the proposal "Geneva Conference on Syria".GreyShark (dibra) 18:06, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

As agreed above, I moved the page to Geneva II Conference on Syria. Thanks for the positive contributions. En rie se de (talk) 20:51, 23 January 2014 (UTC).[reply]

Links

>> Kerry slams Syria ceasefire offer >> >> Syria opposition issues ultimatum over talks >> UN chief invites Iran to Syria peace talks >> EU and US ease some sanctions against Iran >> Syria rivals exchange blame in Geneva talks *>> UN envoy to meet Syria rivals to mend splits >> Syrian peace talks on verge of collapse ><> Brahimi: Syria rivals to meet in same room [3]>> Syrian peace talks off to muted start >> Syria talks deadlocked over power transfer >> Syria rivals to discuss prisoner release >> Syrian talks resume as Homs mission continues >> Syrian rivals hold face-to-face meeting >> Homs mission 'a success' as Syria talks stall >> Brahimi: Syria peace talks' failure looms >> Syria rivals declare impasse in peace talks >> Syria peace talks end in deadlock >> Syria peace talks end as rivals trade blame >> Saudi Arabia and Iran must end their proxy war in Syria >> Syria to seek 'anti-terror' support in Geneva (Lihaas (talk) 15:29, 18 January 2014 (UTC)).[reply]

Ok, i'll bite, what is the purpose of this section, that you keep editing? --PLNR (talk) 18:10, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For those who see fit to use the link and add content. They can then <strike> when its been used.(Lihaas (talk) 15:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)).[reply]

So what you are posing a "task list", for people to add some tidbit you don't care enough to add... Also your list looks like promotion for aljazeera, honestly even if something had caught my eye, I would have intentionally thought alternative source to avoid over reliance on one source in the article--PLNR (talk) 08:28, 28 January 2014 (UTC).[reply]

You can always find a nother source for whats in the news. its just potential updates. If you care to use it, do so. If you don't, maybe someone else will. SIOMPLE!Lihaas (talk) 11:41, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Map

A map showing the participant countries would be a useful addition to this article. AndrewRT(Talk) 19:09, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 20:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Fantastic - thanks! AndrewRT(Talk) 15:25, 2 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: ESL Workshop

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 February 2024 and 18 March 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Oumashu04 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Oumashu04 (talk) 14:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]