Talk:Frano Gundulić

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Requested move 10 May 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Frano Gundulić as suggested by participants below — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:44, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fran Đivo Gundulić → Frano Điva Gundulić – The current name of the page is a mistranslation of the person's name because "Fran" is not a Ragusan name but a Northern Croatian variant (the Ragusan form is Frano, which was his grandfather's name), also Đivo was not his middle name but the name of his father (Ragusans sometimes appended their father's name to differentiate between multiple persons with the same first and last name), and thus it is properly rendered in Ragusan in the genitive case, Điva (not Đivo) - thus, Frano Điva, meaning Frano Đivo's (son). 83.179.213.143 (talk) 04:29, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some sources using that variant: "obranio vrsni dubrovački diplomat Frano Gundulić (otac pjesnika Điva)", "Frano Gundulić, koji nas ovdje zanima, najstariji je sin slavnog pjesnika Dživa", "Frano Dživa". – Þjarkur (talk) 12:30, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[This scientific article] shows that the Ragusan way of writing his name was actually "Frano Điva Gundulića", with both the father's name and the family name in the genitive case, so I will correct this and place the URL of the reference in the article.

Considering this, to avoid confusing non-native speakers into thinking that his last name was "Gundulića" (since they wouldn't know that this is the genitive case), I therefore suggest that the name of the article be changed to simply "Frano Gundulić" or "Frano Gondola" (since the Ragusan nobility only used the Romance version of their family names as official, as this article by a Croatian historian attests[1])

Berto456 (talk) 00:50, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here is further evidence that when there were several persons with the same first and last name, Ragusans wrote the person's first name in the nominative case and the name of the father as well the family name in the genitive case, and that they did so in all languages which have grammatical cases for names (in languages which do not, such as Italian and English, they wrote them in the way names are used in those languages, hence Francesco Giovanni Gondola).

From the poems of Frano's father Đivo [2]:

MARU MARA BUNIĆA
VLASTELINU DUBROVAČKOMU
(signed) DŽIVO FRANA GUNDULIĆA
...
(poems dedicated to the author in Latin) Ad Perillustrem D. Ioannem Francisci Gundulae Patritium Illustrissimae Reipubicae Ragusinae Victor Besalius eiusdem Senior Cancellarius
...
Perillustri D. Ioanni Gundulae Francisci filio Illyricae Camaenae facile principi epigramma Vincentii Slavatatii

Berto456 (talk) 02:09, 14 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support move to Frano Gundulić, as this is sufficient to correctly identify the subject. bd2412 T 15:18, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.