Talk:Fight of the Century (disambiguation)

Ironic

Well, this is a rather ironic page. Perhaps each Fight of the Century is sanctioned by a different boxing federation? :) Troglo (talk) 05:56, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 August 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 22:57, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fight of the Century (disambiguation) → Fight of the Century – No primary topic here. Various searches confirm a broad range of fights referred to. Ali v Frazier is definitely not “more likely than all the other topics combined” (the requirement per PTOPIC). Onceinawhile (talk) 00:46, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. It looks like Joe Frazier vs. Muhammad Ali was moved away from Fight of the Century without discussion last summer, for reasons that are unclear. Since the move took place, Joe Frazier vs. Muhammad Ali still receives more pageviews than all the other topics combined. The only page that would challenge the PTOPIC determination is Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Manny Pacquiao, and recentism is likely a factor in the relatively high number of hits for that page. In addition, it seems likely that searches for Fight of the Century intend to reach the Ali vs. Frazier article, and there is no evidence that the hits for the Mayweather vs. Pacquiao article are resulting from it sometimes (in reference to the Ali vs. Frazier fight of the previous century, really) being referred to as the Fight of the Century. I doubt that users who search for "Fight of the Century" are surprised by arriving at Ali vs. Frazier rather than Mayweather vs. Pacquiao. Dekimasuよ! 05:51, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Dekimasu. Common name. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:20, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is equally the commonname for Jack Johnson vs. James J. Jeffries, which Dekimasu understandably did not include in the pageview analysis because it is a new article. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:33, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A new article you wrote. If it hasn't had an article until now how do you analyze its equality with common name compared with the Ali-Frazier nickname? Randy Kryn (talk) 16:47, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I will let others be the judge of that. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:12, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 15 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved per consensus (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 06:42, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

– Reopening 9 months after previous discussion, for wider input. Pinging Randy Kryn and Dekimasu in case they wish to reconsider their previous position. The page view chart of the various other fights known as Fight of the Century is here. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:31, 15 May 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 21:58, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the title Fight of the Century is now a page with content and so is ineligible to be a new title in a move request unless it, too, is dispositioned. "Fight of the Century → ?" had to be added to this request to fulfill that requirement. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 00:17, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Paine Ellsworth can I amend the above now, or is it too late? As suggested below, the logical proposal is Joe Frazier vs. Muhammad Ali. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:52, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To editor Onceinawhile: this has been done, and the timestamp following my signature will denote when it was done. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 15:39, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. “Fight of the Century” is borderline universally known in the sports world as Ali/Frazier. There having been earlier fights called it don’t matter, later fights called it are aping Ali/Frazier. It’s the accepted common name. RPH (talk) 00:10, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nomination. There are six entries listed upon the Fight of the Century (disambiguation) page, with insufficient indication that the 1971 fight has retained such historical significance that it overwhelms the combined renown of the ones in 1910, 1921, 1938, 2009 and 2015. Would also support Fight of the Century → Joe Frazier vs. Muhammad Ali, per main title headers of entries delineating all the other dab page entries. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 03:03, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Using a longer chart, not much has changed since last time. This appears to be the primary topic for the title, and it is also the common name for the fight. The specific number of hits for the Mayweather/Pacquiao are not by themselves an indication that users expect to see that article when searching for "Fight of the Century"; the Mayweather/Pacquiao article states that it was billed that way, but it doesn't mean it was known specifically under that title. There are also not many hits for the disambiguation page (under 2% of the total) which seems to indicate that there is no problem with the current setup. Also, thank you for the ping. Dekimasuよ! 03:08, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Fight_of_the_Century indicates the hatnote is relatively commonly clicked (still within top 10 links), but at only 114 outgoing views compared to 19.6k incoming views (0.5%), it's hard to say that the average reader is particularly confused by this. Moving it to a primary redirect might make sense, though, because the term is still obviously ambiguous and the simple X vs. Y format is more consistent with the other article title criteria. --Joy (talk) 16:54, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
~~Oppose~~ (EDIT: see below) per Dekimasu's comments in the previous RM. The other fights may have been sometimes marketed as "Fights of the Century", perhaps, but don't appear to be called that as a common name. Ali / Frazier was and is. SnowFire (talk) 20:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence has been provided to confirm Dekimasu's claim. A review of the term on Google Books and Google Scholar suggests the claim is incorrect. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:18, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since you linked pageviews in the RM statement, I checked the highest-pageview item, Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Manny Pacquiao. I checked three references at random published after the fight had concluded, and none of them mentioned "Fight of the Century" - okay, with the exception of some salty anonymous Internet comments that weren't the article itself ragging on it as the DISAPPOINTMENT OF THE CENTURY etc. See [1] , [2], e.g. These other fights are certainly notable, but it's not clear to me that "Fight of the Century" is a term tied THAT closely with them. It's tied very closely to the Frazier / Ali fight, though. (I did not closely check the others, but my rough impression is similar there.) SnowFire (talk) 02:59, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you SnowFire. If you check Jack Johnson vs. James J. Jeffries and Joe Louis and Max Schmeling, you will see different results. The term Fight of the Century is tied very closely to these two fights. Johnson/Jefferies, Louis/Schmeling and Ali/Frazier each had a highly significant societal impact – the first about race relations / racism, the second also about America vs Nazism, and the third about counterculture/protest and modern Black America. I have added some sources below. Bear in mind the recency bias, given that most of these writers were alive during only one of these three fights. Onceinawhile (talk) 05:10, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hirsch, Jack (2021-03-08). "Joe Frazier vs Muhammad Ali: The Fight of the Century from the cheap seats". Boxing News. However, don't think for a moment that the anticipation and historical impact of that match even touches the surface of the Fight of the Century. In boxing history only two other matches can be classified alongside Ali-Frazier I as having transcended boxing, those being the Jim Jeffries-Jack Johnson encounter in 1910 in Reno, Nevada, and the rematch between Joe Louis-Max Schmeling at New York's Yankee Stadium in 1938.

Nash, John S. (2012-07-04). "The Martial Chronicles: Fight of the Century". Bloody Elbow. "The fight of the century is over and a black man is the undisputed champion of the world." Those were the opening words of former champion John L. Sullivan's report from ringside of the Jack Johnson versus James Jeffries fight on this day 102 years ago. Since that day other contests had been labeled the "Fight of the (20th) Century". Frazier-Ali and Louis-Schmeling are perhaps the two best known today with that appellation. What all three shared in common, besides the participation of the some of boxing's greatest champions, was that those fights became something more than the just fights… Thus Ali-Frazier was not a fight between two undefeated champions but a battle between white, Christian, middle America and a black, Muslim, counter-culture. Louis-Schmeling was not only for the heavyweight title of the world but was a clash between democratic America and Nazi Germany. The same with Johnson-Jeffries, the first fight to be labelled "Fight of the Century" and most worthy of the title. For Jack Johnson and Jim Jeffries were not the only ones fighting in the ring that day but so were the whole of the white and black race.

Berkow, Ira (2014). Counterpunch: Ali, Tyson, the Brown Bomber, and Other Stories of the Boxing Ring. Triumph Books. ISBN 978-1-62368-822-6. Like most of the other "Fights of the Century," there is a score to be settled in the Joe Frazier-Muhammad Ali heavyweight championship bout that transcends the ring. Racial and/or political antagonisms have put the spar to the most celebrated fights of the 20th century. One of the participants in this bout, Frazier, is a virtual stranger to any kind of image in America. Ali has enough for both. Fans are in most cases not for or against Frazier, they are for or against Ali. For Ali represents, depending on your background and perspectives, a knave or a knight, an Army slacker or a hero, a charmer or a bore, a racist or a rational man. So it has been, in varying degrees, with Johnson-Jeffries and Johnson-Willard, Carpentier-Dempsey and Tunney-Dempsey, and Louis-Schmeling. All heavyweights carry the burden of the nomenclature, "The Fight of the Century."

William C. Rhoden (2021-03-09). "Ali-Frazier Was More Than a Fight, it Was Part of My Awakening as a Black Man". The Tennessee Tribune. There have been hundreds of great heavyweight title fights, but only three in U.S. history can be classified as a fight of the century. Jack Johnson, the first Black heavyweight champion, defeated Jim Jeffries, the Great White Hope, in 1910. Jeffries was forced out of retirement to "save" white manhood and protect white supremacy from what journalist Charles Dana called "a Black rise against white supremacy." The second fight of the century took place in New York in June 1938 when Joe Louis defeated the German Max Schmeling, becoming the United States' first Black hero. The third fight of the century was Ali-Frazier I.

- I've struck my oppose. Abstaining & not changing to a support though, I'll just admit I'm out of my depth on sufficiently old boxing matches to assess this one. SnowFire (talk) 23:03, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per common name and discussion. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:05, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was asked to explain further (finally figured out which discussion being referred to). What entered my mind as I read this was that using a disamb page would include entries which would not compare with the three actual "Fights of the Century". Rather than disamb the lot to include recentism I again went with the accepted common name - the first Ali-Frazier bout. If the disamb page included only the three fights (1910, 1938, and 1971) I'd support the nomination. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:47, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.