Talk:East Coast–West Coast hip-hop rivalry

pac

was 2pac actually considered a legit gangsta rapper? when he was in the digital underground, he did songs like "humpty hump" and "tie the knot". not very thug like. then suddenly, he's a gun totin' gangsta. what gives? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wellcraft11 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

2pac aka Lesane Parish Crooks, was the very definition of a studio gangsta, the son of Black Panther activists, he grew up listening to revolutionary rhetoric from his mother and step-father, and concurrently admiring real street thugs and gangstas in New York. He grew up a conflicted youth, envying the wealth of the gangstas but never having the balls to run game on the streets like his friend Christopher Wallace aka Notorious BIG. In fact, Lesane (2Pac) early in his career and during his affiliation with Digital Underground, used to borrow money from Biggie to buy jewelry and clothes (referenced by Biggie in a song "keep your jewels, it'll be our little secret"). Pac met Haitian Jack Agnant through Biggie and of course, began hanging off of Haitian Jack, as he admired the money and the power Jacques (Haitian Jack) Agnant held on the streets of New York. This came to an end when Haitian Jack left 2pac to fight a rape case on his own. Lesane (2Pac), having lived his life like a coward, started snitching in court and flapping gums in the media about how Haitian Jack put the rape charge all on him, which resulted in the Quad Studios shooting, since Pac met Haitian Jack through Biggie, and since Biggie had been dealing for Haitian Jack back in the day, and was in the studio, he blamed BIG and Puffy for the set up, instead of realizing that it was his big mouth that got him shot, that and his weak gun skills (being a fake G) 2pac actually shot himself in the nuts trying to pull his gun out, this shot caused the robbers to shoot him, if Pac had laid down, he would only have been robbed and not shot in 1994. Ever the consummate actor, Pac spent the remainder of his life bragging about surviving the shooting (even though his clumsiness caused the shooting in the first place) and blaming Biggie for it, because he knew he could not blame Haitian Jack for the shooting or risk further reprisals.

This jealousy grew greater while he was locked up over Biggie's overnight success with ready to die. while Pac had struggled to make money with Digital Underground and from his first 2 albums (thanks to a lack of proper management) Biggie was making money the way Lesane had only dreamed of, thanks to Puffy. Once again Lesane turned to what he felt was the quickest path to the riches he felt he was owed, that being Suge Knight — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.54.138.108 (talk) 06:09, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

"Gangster rap" is a style and subgenre of rap. Similar subgenre at the time was the Mafioso style of rap on the East Coast at the time. Some elements of "gangster rap" is that it is more confrontational than other styles. As such, there is more name dropping in that style or subgenre. These are all different styles of rapping. With styles, one generally maintains a certain style or approach. During different time periods of a Rapper's career, they may switch styles. For instance, the subgenre or style for Tupac's first album, 2Pacalypse Now, was more of a societal and politically conscious. In his Me Against the World, likewise, he didn't use the gangster rap style, rather it was introspective. And contrary to the idiot who proceeded this comment, someone doesn't get shot in a drive by if they are just a "studio gansta" rather than actually being a gangbanger or gangmember. Ap4lmtree2 (talk) 00:27, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

L.A., L.A.

Isn't the East Coast-West Coast rivalry wider than Death Row and Bad Boy? I think it extends to C-N-N's "L.A., L.A.". Tim Ivorson 11:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, never mind no mention of Westside Connection dissing both Common (and his The Bitch in Yoo response), and A Tribe Called Quest. Willink (talk) 18:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

No Mention Of...

This article did not mention 2Pac's ties to the east coast. Not only was he born in New York and lived in Baltimore as a child, but before he died, he tried to create Death Row East. Death Row East was a branch of Death Row that was going to include East Coast rappers such as Big Daddy Kane, Wu-Tang Clan and DJ Eric B.

This article does not mention if any beefs such as 2Pac's beef with NaS were resolved before his death.

This article does not mention that Biggie and 2Pac were friends before 1996 (I believe) and that they even did a track together called "Runnin'" when they were alive which was later remixed by Eminem for the soundtrack of 2Pac's movie Resurrection.

Needs A Clean Up

This whole page is very messy. The issue of the rivalry are not well set out, nor is the background. For instance many people in the west coast felt that new york, particularly the critics, never gave their artists the respect they gave east coast act. The 2pac/Biggie issue just broke the camel's back. Furthermore I think this stub could be expanded to look at the wider implications of the feud that exist to this day.

Agreed. This is a decent article, but it does have a slight east coast bias, and the sentence referring to Tupac joining Death Row Records and "openly slandering" Bad Boy is definitely something with a distinct east coast POV LoganRage 13:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

In the list of west cost rapers big fat negro directs to the article of franklin rosevelt. Something is seriously wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.148.166.241 (talk) 05:51, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Nas and 2Pac

From what I remembered, 'Pac assumed Nas dissed him on "The Message", when he said "Fake thug, no love, you get the slug", not from a freestyle. Pac and Nas did reslove their fued before his death, but he would die days later, making it impossible to remove "Bomb First" and "Against All Odds". Pac was overly sensitive to being called a fake thug because the words hit him harder than a slug, Pac was an actor plain and simple, he had talent for sure but he was not a gangsta, gangstas do not take ballet lessons

I'm going to add this info, and add the respective sources as well.

NPOV

There seems to be a slight favoring of East Coast (Reffering to Notorious B.I.G as Biggie through the article), I think someone should take a good look at the article soon. I would but i'm pushed for time just now

†he Bread 03:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

An edit

Edited a few of the blurbs about which rappers were involved. For instance, it was 2Pac's anti-East Coast and calling out of East Coast rappers in interviews that led to Cool J's verse in the "I Shot Ya" remix, which is one battle 2Pac was supposedly told not to pursue, as LL's battle record was legendary. I've edited a few others for accuracy, as there can be biases in these types of articles. ThePacMan 23:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

East-West differences

It would be nice if this article would discuss some more of the East-West differences beyond simply the geography of where the artist was from or the label that was located in each place. Could discuss differences prevailing in styles or traditions, affiliations...

24.128.62.196 08:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistency

Nas is listed under both "Participants - East coast" and "Participants - Opposing artists". Given everything I know about it, it seems "East coast" is the more appropriate.

Bracketed word in quotes?

What's with the quote talking about the Death Row/Bad Boy standoff referring to "the [ninja] version of the Cuban Missile Crisis"? I'm tempted to replace "ninja" with "censored" since "ninja" makes no sense here.

end of feud section innacurate

I'm fairly sure that the newspapers didn't refer to the situation exactly as described here. Probably some graffiti.

What a Load of Nonsense

Errr, the people who wrote this article do realise that all these gangsta personas that gangsta rappers adopt are just to sell records, don't they? What, you think if Snoop Dogg really went around shooting people that he'd sing about it in his songs? My God, I'm amazed at the gullibility of some people.

After Tupac was murdered, there was an interview with a friend of Tupac's in the TV guide. I can't remember the exact words, but this is pretty close:

"It was just an act [the gangster image], a media thing..."

She had warned him to be careful and said to him "sooner or later you're going to piss someone off."

Holymolytree2 23:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Puff Daddy(P.Diddy)

He wASNT A opposing artist he dissed pac and the outlawz on a underground tape so remove his name from that section please —Preceding unsigned comment added by The4's (talk • contribs) 00:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Chino XL

The lyric in question was "by this industry, I'm trying not to get fucked like 2Pac in jail." I don't think he was in fact poking fun at 2Pac. He was saying he is trying not to get fucked by the industry, just as Pac was trying not to get fucked in jail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.99.24.242 (talk) 02:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

DMX

This is not true DMX and Kurupt fued did not start until the late 1990s a few years after the East vs. West. Mcanmoocanu 15:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Burn Hollywood Burn

does Burn Hollywood Burn from public enemy have anything to do with this

no this song had more to do with how blacks are portrayed in movies nothing to do with music. KillerSim187 (talk) 18:32, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

NAS/Deathrow

looking on youtube there seems to be alot of unreleased tracks involving NAS rapping with Deathrow before the beef. Also, Deathrow had an east-coast group the street scholars as well as Sam Sneed before the beef. When the beef happened all of these guys were dropped. This should be noted. KillerSim187 (talk) 18:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Merged "Feud" with "Rivalry"

I took the additional material from the "East Coast-West Coast Feud" page and moved it here, then changed that page to a redirect. Both pages were pretty sad, and we definitely don't need two with nearly identical content. - PianoDan (talk) 17:23, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Regarding removal of most of the article's contents because of original research policy

The Original Research policy states that "All material added to articles on Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable published source, even if not actually attributed in the text." The point of the policy is to not have articles that discuss a person's own belief of what events occurred, etc. Nearly all of the information in this article can be attributed to sources that exist, including books, newspapers, etc. There is no reason to remove the contents of the entire article. Gary King (talk) 02:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

An example are the books found at Google Books when searching for the song "Fuck Compton" that arguably sparked this feud. Gary King (talk) 02:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

This article is certainly in a much sadder state than it once was. Hell, it even looked better three edits after being created, which was nearly four years ago. There should a section on the background, another on the main events, and another on the aftermath and legacy—all of which existed at some point in the article's history. The "participants" section should be taken out, as any important participants will already be mentioned throughout the "background/main events/aftermath" sections. I am tempted to simply reinstate the deleted content. I don't understand why someone would find previous versions violated the original research policy, while the current one does not (there's only one reference provided!). — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 12:56, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

WHAT????????????????

it says that the 1991 feud (Tim Dog vs West Coast) led up to the murders of BIG and Pac. That's a huge vandalism. The 1995-96 feud started with Tha Dogg Pound's "New York, New York" after The Source incident, and is completely unrelated to the 1991-92 feud (started with 'Fuck Compton" and ended with "Dre Day"). Can anyone change that and make the article look serious?--BubbleBabis (talk) 14:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, anyone can change that. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 12:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Cheesy

This article definitely needs some cleaning up. My favorite sentence was: "Shakur was flirting with a car full of girls to the left of the BMW so he didn't notice the white Cadillac with four black men inside pulling up on their right." According to the Wiki article on 2pac he was "a vehicle occupied by two women pulled up on their right side. Shakur, who was standing up through the sunroof, exchanged words with the two women, and invited them to go to Club 662." Now that could not be considered flirting. Moreover this information is taken from a website Thugz-Network.com which could not be considered as a reliably source. If I would make a movie about his life I would surely portray him as a kind of guy who flirts in a gangsta style and the other car is filled with top models, but I somehow doubt that's what really happened.

Reply to above question:i wrote the end of the fued article i took the notes from http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/celebrity/shakur_BIG/3b.html and not your suggested thugz-network website.. 

Oh, and even if it happens to be so it should be paraphrased. "Shakur was flirting with a car full of girls." Was the car so hot or what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Q Plung (talk • contribs) 15:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Sources

This article has virtually no sources. It's been cut down before, but the unsourced material keeps coming back. Is there any chance of fixing this article? It violates several core policies so it can't be left as-is. Is it even a notable topic, if no sources have written about it?   Will Beback  talk  05:42, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I've stubbed the article, since there hasn't been any improvements to the sources despite having been tagged years ago and because it concerns living people. We can add more material back as we find reliable sources for it.   Will Beback  talk  05:00, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Well this is a very unsatisfactory solution imo. We should keep in the verifiable timeline at the very least, i.e., when x and y diss tracks were released, when Tupac was shot for the first time, when was he killed, when was Biggie killed, etc.Machine Man (talk) 11:42, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree it's unsatisfactory, but it's also necessary. Material is only verifiable if there are sources. If you'd like to find those sources then feel free to restore the material.   Will Beback  talk  11:58, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Extremely unsatisfactory, stubbing an article of this importance and notability, of which multiple films, books, and songs have been made about is an erroneous decision, there's an inherent difficulty in verifying these things because of the content, most of which is in the aforementioned films and songs, neither of which can be used as reliable sources on Wikipedia. The article was well constructed but devoid of sources, I don't agree that stubbing it is the right choice, but I also recognize it may be an impossible thing to source reliably given the criteria for reliable sources on Wikipedia. Revrant (talk) 01:26, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

If this is such an important topic there surely must have been some articles in Rolling Stone or other magazines or newspapers. I bet the articles on related topics, like Tupac Shakur, have sources that'd apply here. The old version is still in the history, so parts can easily be brought back as sources are found.   Will Beback  talk  02:03, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

There are many sources available on this topic in magazines and books, not just song lyrics. And it is an incredibly important topic -- perhaps one of the most important in the genre. Someone needs to do the research and create a proper entry. Infamous30 (talk) 19:10, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd welcome more sources. But I will continue to undo wholesale reversions to the unsourced versions. Find sources and build the article from there.   Will Beback  talk  11:38, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the shortening of this article

I see the article has recently been shortened because it had no sources. I'm not sure that's really so useful. I mean, the article is basically nothing and gives no information whatsoever about the rivalry. The sole fact that information are unsourced doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong. Very sad to see this information, which I also read sometime ago, gone. --The Evil IP address (talk) 17:21, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I haven't looked at this article before, but I was surprised to find there was no content in it, and looked at the history. It used to be a long, unsourced, unencyclopedic, breathlessly mythologizing essay. But the current situation is just as bad. Having no information in this article at all is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If you're going to take the responsibility of erasing all the information currently there, you sort of owe it to Wikipedia to substitute something that can at least give readers a general idea. 128.148.235.53 (talk) 22:57, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Go for it. Just make sure there are sources.   Will Beback  talk  23:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I will begin to find sources for all of the information that I can in this article (or for the information that was previously in this article). I will only add back sentences that can be verified; being a non-expert and only enthusiastically interested I'll leave the decision on whether to include information which has not been cited to others. Please bear in mind that this will be a long process and that I cannot return the article to its original state quickly, thus there may be some points where it looks like someone stopped working on the article in the middle of a section (probably because someone did and plans to return).   DCnative311 (talk) 2:43, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Rename?

There's no other East Coast-West Coast rivalry that I know of. I propose renaming this article to that title for the sake of brevity. Λυδαcιτγ 09:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Common-Ice Cube

No mention of Common? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.60.241 (talk) 13:41, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

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Request to merge Bad Boy vs. Death Row and 2Pac vs. The Notorious B.I.G.

It's like we have 2 sections for the same topic, can we merge them. --Aaron106 (talk) 04:18, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

suge khight photo

Suge looks like he's stoned in the photo. 69.115.164.74 (talk) 23:08, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Uncle Luke

Shouldn't Luke be included because of the Cowards in Compton diss track?? 2601:C8:201:1F00:1C23:FDB5:2CDA:CE1C (talk) 04:46, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Infobox feud

@Cena332 The Infobox Feud template has recently gone through a major deletion discussion already, the result of that discussion was to keep it. A precedent has been established that musical rivalries can have this infobox. I don't see why this needs discussion now considering there already has been a discussion. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 19:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

You should have a discussion before implementing a major change onto a article. Also the dates you listed are incorrect. The single Fuck Compton was released in July 1991; you listed his album date November 1991, but alot of people would argue 1991 was no where the start of the rivalry, thats why it's listed in the Background section; and the meeting with Louis Farrakhan took place in April 1997; not February 1997. Cena332 (talk) 19:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

As I said before, there already was a discussion on the inclusion of the feud infobox on music rivalries. See the linked discussion. If my dates are wrong, then I apologize for having it incorrect and I am willing to let it be updated but I hardly see why that justifies removing the entire infobox. Wouldn't it make more sense to just edit the data inside the infobox? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 19:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no set consensus on the start of the East Coast–West Coast hip hop rivalry, and having a Infobox that states a certain year that it began I don't believe would be productive. Cena332 (talk) 19:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

This article is short unlike the Drake-Kendrick Lamar feud, I don't believe it is necessary to have a massive Infobox here. Cena332 (talk) 19:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

We can state a vague range of time such as "mid-1990s", however we do know the year in which it ended which should be noted. We can also note who were the major figures in the rivalry and what the outcomes of the feud were. And as Wikipedia articles go, it's not that short in my opinion. Even if it was short, that doesn't necessarily mean its infobox should be removed. For instance, the article Miss Meyers (a featured article) also has an infobox despite it being relatively short. Some other featured articles shorter than this which have infoboxes include:

• Constantine (son of Theophilos)
• Nico Ditch
• Hurricane Irene (2005)
• Thomcord

Indeed, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes does not specify any kind of size requirement. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 19:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

If a Infobox must be included is mid-1990s to April 3, 1997 ok with you. Cena332 (talk) 19:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Certainly. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 19:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Articles do not have to have infoboxes. Frankly, I'd argue that this article's complexity lends itself to being described in prose much better than a shoehorned infobox. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 20:10, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok then, argue it. To me it seems pretty simple to describe the sides and major figures on each side as well as the outcome and end of the rivalry in an infobox. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 20:18, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why it's not simpler to describe the sides and resolution in the currently tidy lead. I'd also add that the proposed infobox lists the drive-by shootings as if the feud was what caused them, which doesn't seem to be the case. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 02:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

We can have both a lead and an infobox. Also, the murders are very closely related to the rivalry. For one, the murders directly led to the end of the rivalry. Another is that several sources link the rivalry to the murders. While it is not certainly confirmed that the murder of Tupac or Biggie was motivated by the rap feud, the murders must definitely be mentioned in any history or summary of the rap feud. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 12:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Certainly can have both, but it would be my preference to not have an infobox when it doesn't add to a reader's experience. On the murders, they do need to be mentioned in the article. What they can't do is be listed under "culmination" as if they were caused by the feud without sources that confirm the link. The Los Angeles Times tried to do so in 2002, but I haven't seen other sources confirm their reporting. In fact, that 2011 Guardian source you linked said: "But this is where the myth risks overtaking reality. Despite numerous competing theories, nobody has ever been prosecuted for either murder, and there's no evidence that the feud directly led to the killings." The later AP source, written after someone was charged for one murder, does link them in the lead ("drug kingpin enmeshed in the feud") but provides no reason for doing so in the rest of the piece, and our Wikipedia article doesn't do so either. (I don't see what weight Time and especially the BBC, in an article that tangentially mentions the murders, bring here.)

All in all: it's a messy narrative, making this more suitable for article prose than a black/white infobox. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 15:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Alright then, as it appears that the essentials of the conflict can't be displayed in an infobox, then it most likely doesn't deserve one. I'll leave the article as is. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Clarification needed

"Although Tim Dog would not figure into the later stages of the feud, his diss track presaged what was to come." This sentence doesn't make much sense and only makes the article more confusing to read. I suggest it is either made more clear or removed. ShortyMcShortFace (talk) 11:47, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Hip-hop which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 10:04, 2 December 2024 (UTC)