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Requested move 20 February 2018

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Consensus that common name seems to favour the current accent, and also Italian Wikipedia spells it this way. Until and unless that changes, there doesn't seem valid reasons to move it here an en.wiki  — Amakuru (talk) 13:10, 27 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dolcè → Dolcé – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. 151.48.214.225 (talk) 11:00, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:04, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The accent is wrong, Italian orthography expects the acute accent in place of the grave accent (see [1] and [2]). 151.48.209.211 (talk) 12:34, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In ictu oculi, you've misunderstood. You "use Italian for Italian place names on en.wp not Venetian dialect", right? That's exactly why that page has to be moved. Dolcé isn't the Venetian orthography (which is actually Dolcè) but the Italian orthography (which reflects the official orthoepic pronunciation: "é" = [e] / "è" = [ɛ]). Both the DOP ("Dictionary of Orthography and Pronunciation") by Bruno Migliorini and the DiPI ("Dictionary of Pronunciation of Italian") by Luciano Canepari confirm the orthography with "é" (and consequently the pronunciation with [e]). Have I clarified what you misunderstood? 151.48.209.211 (talk) 12:34, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I see right. I got it the wrong way round. You're objecting that the name is as the commune's website http://www.comunedolce.it/ is actually Venetian and not Italian. I thought it looked a bit odd, but Spaventoso frontale con feriti tra due auto a Dolcè, quattro in codice rosso. But now am wondering whether we do enforce Italian names on Venetian villages? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:02, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What, and Comune di Cardè's official website http://www.comune.carde.cn.it/, the other side of the country is in Italian, but that spelling is Piedmontese? And back in the Veneto again. http://www.arsie.info/it/tra-passato-presente-e-futuro/cenni-storici.html what's going on here. We've got a book cover and html going each way. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:06, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In ictu oculi: I'm clarifying everything, just read my explanation.

  • Italian language derives from a particular Italian dialect, Tuscan (Florentine). In Tuscany (Florence) the pronunciation of "E"s (and "O"s) is for definition the correct one, the one registered in dictionaries.
  • In the other regions, Italians always pronounce some words with different accents, in particular the above mentioned "E"s and "O"s. For example, in some regions of Northern Italy the word "perché" ([per'ke]) is pronounced "perchè" ([per'kɛ]).
  • If you google "perchè", the uncorrect form, you'll find 77 millions of results. If you search it in any Italian on-line dictionary (Garzanti, Sabatini Colletti, Olivetti, HOEPLI...) you won't find it, not even once.
  • Do you want an example of where you can find the uncorrect "perchè"? In the comune of Dolcé's website. In this page, for example: [3] (and you can find also "Dolce'" with apostrophe, but I'm talking about this below).
  • In Italian schools students are almost always taught that only one kind of accent exists, so most of adult Italians don't even know the difference bewteen grave and acute accent. When they handwrite they mark accents like an apostrophe, and in our keyboards we don't have uppercases for accented vowels so we use the apostorphe after the unaccented vowel in uppercase.
  • Comunal sites aren't even coherent with themselves, not even by making always the same mistake: you can read different spellings in different pages (for example, here you'll read 4 times "Dolcé": [4]).
  • Among this bedlam, which are the sources providing the correct orthography (and pronunciation) of accented words? Municipal sites? The same sites where you find huge errors like "perchè"? The same sites where in different pages you find different spellings for the very name of the comune? Redacted by municipal employees (i.e. average Italians who, except for Florentines, don't know the correct Italian accents of all words in speaking, and most of them, even the Florentines, can't distinguish between accents and apostrophe in writing not to mention grave and acute accents)? Or perhaps we must rely on dictionaries? Dictionaries which were made for this very aim? Dictionaries redacted by authoritative linguists such as Migliorini and Canepari?

As you see, it's not a matter of Italian vs. dialect. There're regional pronunciations of course, but if you said that in this wiki you use for Italian place names "Italian", not "dialect", why are you contesting the 2 most authoritative sources about standard Italian orthography and pronunciation? By the way, I think that you've also misunderstood the meaning of that "(Ven.)" in the page from the DOP: it doesn't mean "Venetian dialect" but "Veneto region", where the comune belongs; it's a dictionary for standard Italian, not for Italian dialects... Are you still sure of your previous statement about the correctness of Dolcè in Italian (and the "dialectalness" of Dolcé)? 151.48.215.96 (talk) 19:39, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Reply' Thanks for pinging me here on the article Talk page which is how notifications are usually made. No, I'm not clear on anything now. Other than that if Italians don't know the correct accent it's going to be very difficult on the English Wikipedia to correct them. Maybe the correction should start on the it.wp and when a consensus (by discussion at the it.wikipedia orthography page or geography project) is established there come back and fix en.wp in six months time? As it is en.wp editors can only be guided by sources even if the sources are according to Italian orthography rules wrong. Or open a discussion on WP Italy here to set this in policy for as WP:FRMOS establishes French article MOS here. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:32, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for answering. I'll reply to all of your points:
    • I said that the average Italian doesn't know the difference between grave and acute accent (almost always also between accent and apostrophe, one of the most common errors is writing "un pò di" in place of "un po' di" which means "a bit" or "a few"). But average Italians aren't a reliable source.
    • English wiki, like all wikis, should be based on reliable sources, shouldn't it? What are reliable sources for an article in en.wikipedia? Google results? Private blogs? No. Dictionaries and encyclopedies and stuff like that. Am I wrong?
    • To answer the question "What's the correct spelling of a word in Italian?" we need "An Italian dictionary" or "An English-Italian dictionary". To know how to write correctly "po'" we should check dictionaries, not search through the net (20 millions of results for "pò" by Google). For a proper noun it's the same as for a word, the DOP and the DiPI were redacted specifically to provide the correct spelling of Italian words and proper nouns. They're the "non plus ultra" reliable sources for orthography and pronunciation, also professional Italian dubbers consult them to know the correct orthoepy of words and names.
    • I think you know better than me that: first, a wiki can't be a source for itself nor for another wiki, because it's based on primary or secondary sources so it isn't a primary or secondary source (that's why we can't base articles in en.wikipedia on articles in it.wikipedia); second, every wiki is a stand-alone project, different wikis in different languages can make different choices and it's wrong to require all wikis to follow one wiki's choice (that's why we mustn't base articles in en.wikipedia on articles in it.wikipedia). More, in it.wikipedia it was discussed about what pages should be moved in order to correct their accents, 5 users agreed but the admin who moved the pages decided to move just those pages who weren't contradicted by comunal sites (whose unreliability I've already explained yesterday).
    • You said well: "en.wp editors can only be guided by sources". The sources are the DOP and the DiPI, not the Italian wiki. This is the main point in your reasoning I'm contesting. Or maybe I've just misunderstood what you meant, English isn't my mother language, if I'm wrong please tell me.
Let me know. 151.48.199.145 (talk) 12:01, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, sorry, I do appreciate that English isn't your mother tongue, though it's certainly better than my Italian! But the problem is that en.wp has a policy of WP:COMMONNAME that applies to article titles. If an Italian commune is spelling itself a particular way that counts heavily towards WP:COMMONNAME, as also do newspapers and books. I really think this is something that should draw input from editors on it.wp first before fixing en.wp In ictu oculi (talk) 12:19, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the compliment! Well, if this is your final decision I wont insis't in repeating my arguments, I'll just add one more thing: the "common name" rule aplies to "correct names". If it wasn't like that, when an uncorrect name is more common than the correct name we should title a page with the uncorrect name. If "Nicolò Macchiavelli" was more common than "Niccolò Machiavelli" we should name the page with the first wrong name, to follow your reasoning. So, if you aren't convinced yet, I have no more arguments to convince you and I'll respect your current point of view which is different from mine. I just wonder why, "now", you're expressing "this" point of view about such a matter, while "2 years ago" you had "another" point of view about an absolutely identical case, about Portobuffolé (the name was corrected in en.wikipedia first, when in it.wikipedia it had still the wrong name, and then it was corrected in all other wikis)... 151.48.211.135 (talk) 12:42, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please, please, please, stop pinging me on my Talk page - I've suggested three times now that IMHO the problem should be sorted out with expert Italian editors on a policy page on it.wp, and then brought here to en.wp when you have established consensus there. Cheers. I have no further comment here. Good luck. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:48, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry, I won't disturb you any more, I just wonder why you've started a discussion about an argument of Italian concern if you don't want to go all the way, and why your present opinion about this case is opposite compared to the opinion you had for an identical case 2 years ago... 151.48.210.135 (talk) 14:25, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose @151.48.211.135 - I'm not convinced at all. Apart from your two dictionaries, which merely produce the form "Dolcé" without any explanation or context, I can't find any other Italian source that spells it that way. When I google "Comune di Dolcé", all the top results, including [ http://www.comunedolce.it their official page] and Province of Verona spell it "Dolcè". Ditto with books: searching for "Comune di Dolcè" gives quite a few hits, including Giornale italiano from 1872, and La Legislazione italiana from 1964. I might accept that the "Dolcè" spelling is peculiar, but peculiar spellings are quite common in onomastics. You haven't given us much proof to your proposed spelling. No such user (talk) 13:57, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No such user, have you read my reply to the other user's similar observations? Generic sites or books aren't reliables source for "correct othography". When you want to be sure about how to spell a word in English, such as "school", don't you search for it in a dictionary? And when you want to know how to spell a word in another language? Don't you do the same? So, why in this case do you consider more reliable generic books and sites, redacted not by notable linguists but by persons who aren't as expert in orthography as notable linguists? What were these dictionaries redacted for, if they're less reliable about orthography than any Internet site? Let's take a look to them.
    • Google... You find 77.000.000 results for "perchè" (as I said yesterday) which is a very uncorrect spelling refused by any dictionary.
    • Municipal site... Where you read different spellings of this name in different pages or even in the same page (with the apostrophe used in place of the accent several times: [5]; also mispells such as "perchè").
    • Provincial site... Where "all" listed municipal names ending with an accented E are spelled with grave accent, without ecceptions, and this happens for almost every province and region, but here you can find also 3 different spelling for Dolcé in 3 lines (Dolcè, Dolce' and Dolcé: [6]) and even the notorious "perchè" ([7]).
    • The 2 books... Italian Journal from 1812, when Italy didn't exist yet and Manzoni hadn't written yet his famous "I promessi sposi" (on which is based modern Italian) and where you can find 50 times "perchè"; the other book about Italian Legislation doesn't even use the acute accent in any word, never ever.
I could randomly search for sites or books containing "Dolcé" spelled like this, but this won't mean anything as finding any contaning "Dolcè" wouldn't mean anything, because generic sites or books "are-not-reliable-sources" for spellings of words and names. Rather, have a look at the DOP's biblography and tell me if you still think it's less reliable than the web pages you've linked: [8]. Now, I'm not doubting of any English speaker's intelligence and culture in general, but unless you've deeply studied Italian language you can't know more than a motherlanguage about Italian, and it's not an insult or anything wrong, I don't know English as well as you, not even distantly! You can't know how Italians are taught about accents, how Italians are used to writing accents in handwriting and when typing, what are the most common errors in spelling we do, what sources are recognised as the best about orthography and pronunciation... I know because I've been living here since I was born, that's why I could rebut your links. You (generic plural) should be able to recognise the most reliable sources for an issue, and in this case English speakers should rely on the most notable Italian dictionaries to know the correct spelling of an Italian word, not search through the net to find something showing their opinion is right... I hope I was exhaustive enough, in case you're still not convinced ask me everything you like, but please read carefully my long explanation before. 151.48.199.146 (talk) 15:12, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have read everything above, there is no need to repeat yourself. However, we aren't discussing perchè, we're discussing Dolcè. I have done the due diligence, and apart from your two contextless dictionary entries, I found zero evidence for your proposed spelling. The subject is consistently spelled "Dolcè" in all websites of general interest [9]: the commune, the province, tourist bureau, Google maps, booking.com, Via Michelin, tuttitalia.it. It's just not possible they're all wrong. On the contrary, search for "Dolcé" [10] gives Facebook, French Wikipedia, a random comment on Trip Advisor, misspellings of Dolce & Gabbana and wikt:dolce... about zero reference to the commune. And really, to convince us you are supposed to show us "the most reliable sources for an issue" and "randomly search for sites or books". My own so far has produced none in your favor, and I convince you I know how to search. No such user (talk) 16:19, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like you to explain to me what you meant in a pair of your passages: defining the "Dictionary of Orthography and Pronounce" by Bruno Migliorini and the "Dictionary of Pronunciation of Italian" by Luciano Canepari "contextless"; the bases of your statement "It's just not possible they're all wrong". About the rest:
        • I used a common and serious mispell like "perchè" as a sample to prove the unreliability of the sources you'd brought.
        • My proposed spelling is registered by the 2 strongest and most authoritative sources about Italian orthography (if you find a stronger or more authoritative source about Italian orthography please bring it here); your proposed spelling is found either in sites where the spelling changes from one page to another (or even in the same page) and spelling errors concerning accents are common, or in sites where all accents in all occurrences are grave (and this makes spelling errors concerning accents common): thus, "such sources" are "unreliable" for "Italian orthography".
        • I've already shown you "the most reliable sources for an issue", which are the DOP and the DiPI for this issue, that is Italian orthography (and pronunciation, because "é" in Italian represents a different sound from "è"), sources where you don't find different spellings in different occurrences, sources which don't contradict themselves, unlike the ones you brought. Do you really want me to "randomly search for sites or books" to find the spelling "Dolcé"? All right: Museum of Dolcé (Provincial website) Verona bishop's curia (Veronese cultural heritage files) Zantedeschi Francesco's biography (Verona library) A page from Dolcé municipal website where "Dolcé" is spelled 4 times Italian geological map Venetian agriculture Italian archeological pulications Veronese studies. But I don't consider such sites and books "reliable sources about Italian orthography", like the ones you linked.
I'm sure you do know how to search, but this is a particular case, a case about the spelling of a foreing proper noun, and your usual way of searching led you to commit evaluation errors, the ones I've rebutted in my previous reply. There's no offence in this. I'm sure I wouldn't be as good as you in searching, finding and discerning correct information about British or American English, as we both wouldn't be as good as a Serbo-Croatian in searching, finding and discerning correct information about Serbo-Croatian language. I wrote more than this before, but I couldn't remember everything after I lost the text because of I don't know which kind of error... 151.48.199.70 (talk) 19:45, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Offence not taken. My Italian is only basic, but I do have linguistic background; what I do know is that place names often escape systems and language phonotactics. I don't know whether an ⟨è⟩ (presumably pronounced /ɛ/) is possible in final position, but it seems it is in a general case. I'm still not convinced why a general-place dictionary would be a more reliable source for spelling of a place name than its own residents. As a yet another counterpoint, I shall offer official Italian census results (2011): "Principali statistiche geografiche sui comuni - Dati comunali e provinciali". Istat. 19 February 2013. - on sheet 2 (Dati comunali), one can find Dolcè, Arsiè, Cardè, as well as Zanè, Sanfrè, Parè, Almè etc. I'm hesitant to call those "errors" whatever the prescriptive rules might be, and for Wikipedia to override official Italian census results. No such user (talk) 21:40, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It's a good thing that you've got linguistic background, so I can speak about this issue more specifically:
            • As you presume, "è" is pronounced [ɛ] and "é" is pronounced [e]. Accent is mandatory only over final vowels, but dictionaries report it on every stressed syllable because there's no rule to distinguish when an E is pronounced in a way or in the other. It's like for English words ending with O: there's no rule to know which words have their plural in -os and which in -oes, you have to consult a dictionary when you don't know the plural of a certain word.
            • Both -è and -é are possible word endings in Italian. Final "è" is more common than final "é" in proper nouns, orthoepical dictionaries certify which are the official pronunciation and the related orthography. Etymologically, Italian "é" i.e. [e] comes from Latin "ē" or "ĭ". Well, most of the geographycal nouns in -é come from Latin nouns ending in -ētum (or -ēdum), a suffix usually indicating a vegetation type.
            • When I talk about "Italian" I obviously mean "standard Italian", which is based on Tuscan accent (Dante, the father of our language, was Florentine), as I told the other user. For example, for English the standard pronunciation is the Oxford English, as far as I know (maybe I'm wrong and in this case I think you know). It's not a matter of English/Italian language vs. a local language or dialect, since we're talking about the official English/Italian pronunciation.
            • What are the standard pronunciations of Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast? I mean in English, not in Scottish, Welsh or Irish. Is it the pronunciation used in these countries? No, it's the Oxford English pronunciation. The same is for Italian: it doesn't mind what's the local pronunciation of Dolcé (but we have no sources for that, except for an indication in it.wikipedia about the Venetian dialect name which is "Dolsé" written like this), because Dolcé is an Italian comune and the official language there and in all our peninsula is Italian, not local dialect. What are the source for standard Italian? Dictionaries such as the DOP and the DiPI. They both establish that the correct pronunciation in standard Italian, with Tuscan (Florentine) accent, is Dolcé. Another example: Genova. Genoans pronounce it "Génova" with [e], and they're free to do it, but if you want to learn how to pronounce that name in Italian and you consult a dictionary, you'll find that you have to pronounce it "Gènova" with [ɛ], because in standard Italian that's the pronunciation, and I don't think you'd contest it.
            • I've downloaded the file, I already had a similar one, from ISTAT. Have you noticed that all Italian names, without exceptions (except for the French names from Val d'Aosta, which aren't Italian but French), have grave accent over E, never ever acute accent? ISTAT does't care about pronunciation, it just registers names with one accent. I know that for a not Italian speaker this sounds strange, but it's like I've said. Well, I told you that on our keyboards we don't have uppercases for accented vowels. Do you know what happens if we press "uppercase" + "è"? It produces "é". That's why ISTAT and other sites listing place names use always "grave" accent instead of "acute" accent: it's one "useless" effort less (if ISTAT had had some names ending in -è and some others ending in -é, when it disagreed with DOP and DiPI we could really have discussed about which one would be more reliable in those cases, but ISTAT and every list of names you'll look for just don't care about which are the final accents, it's not their aim...). The correct orthography and pronunciation are provided by dictionaries, not by ISTAT lists. In fact they report many place names ending in -è, like Zanè and Almè, but some of them end in -é, like Dolcé. A guide discerning between "è" and "é" is itself more reliable that a list where all occurrences end with "è" or a net where the same name is spelled sometimes with "è", sometimes with "é" and sometimes with "e'", isn't it?
In the end it's all about this: which source must we consider the most reliable about this issue? We're talking about the correct orthography (and pronunciation) of a name in standard Italian. I understand your point of view, that is that the local pronunciation is the one to be reported in an encyclopedy like this, but remeber my examples of Oxford English and of Genova: it's just uncorrect requiring to ignore the official pronunciation in the official language spoken in a country. May you tell me what you think about this last statement of mine? 151.48.212.111 (talk) 08:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As a matter of fact, English does not have a central authority – no one dialect is considered "standard" and there is no single authoritative grammar, orthography or dictionary. Correctness is ultimately defined by usage, although of course there are dialects, institutions and publishers whose idioms are considered prestigious (based on social, historical and academic factors) and which form the basis for a de facto standard. Even if Received Pronunciation historically were considered as prestigious for British English, there is a gradual trend of broadening use of local dialects on television. And dictionaries, including the Oxford English Dictionary tend to describe usage rather than prescribe it.
Like you said, it boils down to question which source we consider the most reliable. There is not one right answer; personally, I lean on the side of usage rather than on the side of correctness. I don't know if the "è" notation is consequence of local pronunciation or just of "laziness" (the grave accent being the "default" one to indicate the stress location, regardless of the vowel quality), but that "laziness" seems too widespread (and includes the Census bureau) to be called an "error". Generally, when in doubt we do tend to lean on the side of "correctness" (rather than on overwhelming usage), but in this case the gap in usage is just too wide. I understand where you're coming from, though. No such user (talk) 12:25, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi.
                • The English issue isn't exactly as you've meant it. English is a world wide spoken motherlanguage, Italian is officially spoken just in our peninsula. Standard English is considered the British English accent spoken in a part of England; Canadian English, South-African English, New-Zealandese English are different, but when "I" consult a dictionary to know how to pronounce a word or a name "I" always find the standard pronunciation, I won't find /mælbn/ but /mɛlbən/ for Melbourn... The same for Italian, on a smaller scale: Tuscan (Florentine) is the "standard", the "official", the "findable in dictionaries", but neither a Lombard nor a Roman use that pronunciation when they speak, Genoans call their comune /dʒenova/ but in an Italian dictionary you'll find only /dʒɛnova/. This is what I meant. Since we're talking more about correct orthography than about correct pronunciation, it's even more important to give correct information about it.
                • The reason why grave accent is so often used in place of acute accent is the reason I've explained before: you can call it "laziness" or "lack of knowledge", but it remains an error. There's a great "indifference" in Italy for the type of accent, so great that using apostrophes in their place is common. We don't have something like French "Académie française" or Spanish "Real Academia Española", which have an effective power to establish the correctness of orthography and pronunciation: we have just the "Accademia della Crusca", which is nothing but a merely consultive institution with no effective power. That's why even ISTAT doesn't care about which graphic accent to put over final "E"s and always uses the same accent. A not serious encyclopedy would report ISTAT orthography, a good encyclopedy would report dictionaries orthography. In the end, you're free to choose for "usage" or "correctness", and if I haven't convinced you so far I don't think I can ever convince you, so I'm asking you a question: in en.wikipedia is there a rule which can indicate us what choice is preferred? You said that here you tend to lean on the side of correctness, is it just an impression of yours or is it there any concrete indication? The "usage" form (Dolcè) isn' that overwhelming compared with the "correctness" form (Dolcé), because with Italian Google I've found more that 150.000 results for the second and almost 450.000 for the first, that is a 1:3 rate; considering all I've explained about the "excellent" relation between Italians and accents, it could have gone much worse if the usage was really "overwhelming"... 151.48.210.135 (talk) 14:25, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You will have hard time finding "firm rules" in Wikipedia; after all, it's a crowd-sourced project, with all sorts of haphazard conventions and idiosyncrasies. I would certainly not call us a "serious encyclopedy" :). As In Ictu Oculi suggested, this would better be resolved on the Italian wiki first; while each national Wikipedia is independent, we would often look into the "home" wiki when in doubt about spelling of an obscure subject, such as this one. I remain convinceable by your argumentation, but not convinced yet. At minimum, we should create redirects from Dolcé etc. and put the alternative forms in the lead sections, e.g. Dolcè (also spelled Dolcé[note 1]) is... No such user (talk) 15:05, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, okay... Do you know anyone among English Wikipedians who's sufficiently expert in the encyclopedy conventions to know what would be better to do in this case? If you don't, I won't insist any more and just leave the page where it's now. It's uncorrect to write "Dolcè (also spelled Dolcé)", because the right spelling is just one, both if we decided to follow the orthoepically correct name and if we choose to use the most common form. Let's wait for Italian Wikipedians to correct the name before moving the page, all right. But let me tell you what happened there: there was a proposal to move all similar spelling errors (all comuni ending in -è which should have edned with -é); 4 users "Agree"d, 2 users didn't like the DOP choice but acknowledged its authority about it, nobody "Disagree"d. But unluckily we're "Italians", so 1 admin (better, 1 "Italian user with admin powers") established which pages to move and which to leave there because he decided that there wasn't consensus... Yes, in Italian wiki that's what happens normally: there's consensus if admins say there's consensus, or if users agree and no admin disagrees (exactly like in our country: not everything they say about us is "commonplace", alas!). This was to say that I don't know when (nor whether) the page will be moved in it.wikipedia. Not too bad anyway, the world won't end if this page keeps the uncorrect accent. At least I've trained my English! 151.48.210.18 (talk) 16:20, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Again moved by problemtic ip

[edit]

Not too bad anyway, ip 151.48.210.18 said... LOL, and yesterday with the nickname User:ARENVC he moved the page.. it's User:Asluoer too, blocked here, or this in fr.wiki, or a lot of accounts blocked in it.wiki. He use a proxy server as ip 151.xxx for cross-wiki abuse. Never thought of moving Dolcè en it.wiki, I dont' know guidelines in en.wiki but it's a comune of 2000 hab., unknown..--Kirk39 (talk) 05:16, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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