Talk:Danny Williams (soccer, born 1989)

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Requested move 5 June 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. We have a unanimous consensus to replace "footballer" with "soccer" as the subject is American. The birth date will be retained, per consensus in the discussion and the existence of other soccer/football players of the same name. Cúchullain ^t/c 11:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Danny Williams (footballer, born 1989) → Danny Williams (soccer, born 1989) – He represents the United States Joeykai (talk) 21:17, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. How about moving to Danny Williams (soccer) instead, since he is the only American player of this name? PC78 (talk) 09:21, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom with "born" and all. Ambiguous disambiguation should not be used. It would not help readers identify the topic of the article, since they are all soccer players or footballers, depending on the reader's own dialect of English, and we should not expect all readers to determine that synonyms (soccer player vs footballer) do not mean what they mean in English, but have special Wikipedia meanings depending on the topic's place of birth. Synonyms are not disambiguatory, they are ambiguous, so this needs the birth year -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 07:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Danny Williams (soccer player). Rreagan007 (talk) 01:48, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Danny Williams (soccer) per WP:NCSP. Look over Category:American soccer players and you'll see that this is the normal disambiguator. --BDD (talk) 16:15, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. --BDD (talk) 16:16, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - but only as Danny Williams (soccer) per WP:NCSP. The descriptor is adjectival, so "soccer, born xxxx" makes no real sense. Fenix down (talk) 16:28, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are five soccer players named Danny Williams, the year is needed to disambiguate properly.Joeykai (talk) 16:44, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There are five association football players. Due to MOS:TIES, we use North American or British English depending on a person's nationality. Americans don't use the term "footballer", so it would usually be inappropriate to see that term in the title of an American biography. Brits do use soccer, though not as commonly, so we don't use it in British biographies. See WP:NCSP for the official formulation. Will this confuse a reader on his or her first day reading about association football on Wikipedia? Yeah, probably. But it's an easy system to get used to, and we can certainly use hatnotes to ease things. --BDD (talk) 16:57, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And if we did need further disambiguation, Danny Williams (American soccer) would be better. Per WP:NCPDAB, years aren't good disambiguators: "readers are more likely to be seeking this information than to already know it". --BDD (talk) 16:58, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but this Danny Williams was born in Germany and has played his entire club career in Europe. (soccer, born 1989) is the most clear disambiguation.Joeykai (talk) 17:29, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That would be an argument for calling him a footballer, if anything. But since he plays for the US senior team, he's an American for FIFA's purposes, as well as for ours. That could change if he became notable for another profession in Germany or something—see my comments at Talk:João Mário (footballer, born January 1993)—but that's speculative. --BDD (talk) 18:17, 12 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

TIES only guides which word to use as a disambiguator, it does not show that the choice of which synonym to use makes the topic unambiguous. This is not a soccer encyclopedia, and there are places where "soccer" and "footballer" are used together, so we should not use dialectal disambiguators to show that it is a different topic. It does not server the readership. "soccer" does not disambiguate from any other footballer who plays "soccer" (association football). There is no difference between this one and any other footballer. Thus the "born" statement must be attached, or some other further disambiguation. -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 04:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Danny Williams (soccer as no other 'soccer' players have this name - the others are footballers. That is standard for North American players. Giant Snowman 14:37, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Danny Williams (soccer, born 1989). He's American, so the change of football to soccer is a given. The question here is whether or not to drop the birth year. I think we should keep it because to drop it implies he is the only soccer player of that name. While that might make sense to people where the name for the sport is football, it's actually very confusing to those who call it soccer, e.g. Americans, Australians, Canadians, etc. Danny Williams (soccer) implies to them (and to me, incidentally) that he is the only notable soccer player named Danny Williams that Wikipedia has an article when that's not the case – we actually half a dozen notable soccer players called Danny Williams, it's just most of them use the "footballer" disambiguation. Jenks24 (talk) 19:01, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.