Talk:Debutante

The Assembly

Does The Assembly need to be disambiguated, as it currently points to a synth pop band? (presumably one that doesn't perform at cotillions) Ziggurat 07:09, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Advertisement

I feel that the reference to the Hotel Crillon in the 'see also' is basically an advertisement and I am considering taking it out. Why should it be the ONLY hotel mentioned that hosts a bal? There are many others around the world that are just as important and grandiose (IE Waldorf Astoria for the international debutante ball for over 50 years). The Crillon does not even have a real ball. For less than 15 years now, it is a pseudo-debutante, meant to look like the real thing but the lack of any real charity(I have heard only 30,000USD in 2008), lack of sincerity by the participants, and the fact the the guest list is formed by a PR company in order to promote a host of products (jewelry, accessories, dresses, HOTELS, etc) makes this just a promotional event and not a genuine debutante. Please tell me if anyone prefers that the hotel stays and instead we just publish a long list of hotels of the world that feature debutantes? (Of course I don't have time to make the list... its easier to just exclude the hotel from 'see also' 178.146.82.203 (talk)

Strange Section

What is any of this about? Why so many capitalized phrases? "Though the White American Society pays little attention to the Greater Contributions of the African American Social Orders and Fraternal Organizations.The African Americans recognize their own Sovereign Debutantes and their Cotillions that they themselves present.The Jack and Jill Society as well as The Beautillions that they themselves also present, are a Wonderful example of how the Fabulous and Marvelous plight and introduction of our Dear and Loved Forefathers" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.61.44 (talk) 03:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

This is gone by now. It currently reads in United States > American debutante balls:

"The African American community has a long tradition of charitable events and activities since the early 20th century. A large portion of these activities happened during social events and formal activities, namely, cotillions and debutante balls. It was at these events that those African Americans who had the means to expand their wealth were able to meet with other successful African Americans, and make social and political and economic connections. These formal cotillion and debutante balls still thrive as a viable outlet for those seeking success to participate in one of the most traditional vestiges of the African American upper class.[9][10][11]" Ken K. Smith (a.k.a. Thin Smek) (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

opening paragraph

what is a "representative family"? I've never heard of the phrase in the UK, is it common in the USA? Markb 11:26, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The phrase "representative family" is used on the National Debutante Ball and Cotillion website http://www.thecotillion.org/ and may be particular to Washington DC "official" society. Anyone else have a clue? PKM 19:20, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, now tell me what the heck "Cotillion" means! Markb 08:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

A cotillion was originally a dance of the late 18th century, typically the last dance at an assembly or ball. The term now also has the US meaning of any social event with an emphasis on ballroom dancing and traditional formal etiquette.

A cotllion or "junior cotillion" may also be an organization which teaches young people the dances and behaviors they need to know to behave "properly" at a formal ball, through a series of dances and etiquette classes (table manners, giving and wearing corsages, managing a long skirt when getting in and out of a car, whatever). I believe the term "cotillion" is more common for a debutante ball in the South and East.

See http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/textc/Cotillion.html (definitions), http://www.colonialmusic.org/Resource/howtoCOT.htm (the dance type), http://www.californiajuniorcotillion.com/ (etiquette training). PKM 18:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

many thanks! Markb 10:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Proposed Merger

See the discussion at Debutante ball... Mgcsinc 22:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

English

There was some shocking English in this peice. I fixed it. --82.36.205.181 17:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Now Featuring...

Recently I rewrote debutante ball to merge it with this one. I also added the illustrations. Zena Dhark…·°º•ø®@» 01:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Who can help with citations on this article???? Please Leave Comments Here I never went to my prom. ! Zena Dhark…·°º•ø®@» 05:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Philippine Debut?

Why don't they have philippine debuts section? This is an outrage! *lol*

I re-added the previous Philippines Debut entry from a year ago. For some reason, someone took it out after a year. Anywho, it's in the article again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.230.202.22 (talk) 02:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The "Philippine" section of this wiki entry needs more research and citations, like the separate "Philippine Debut" entry. Also, I find the statement, "It is said that the number of débuts females and males have been involved in, as a cotillion member, serves as a mark of their popularity" absolutely ridiculous. There are a myriad of reasons why a host would choose a cotillion member, including, most especially, the availability of an individual (not just for the actual event but for rehearsals) and his or her capability to perform. Sandra5482 (talk) 04:48, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Writing Style Corrections

I just wanted to note that the writing of the article is quite poor, but in a subtle way. There are many run-on sentences, and many places (especially towards the beginning of the article) where the writer is trying to phrase things in a complicated fashion without properly structuring the sentence. There's also occasional problems with tenses and plural words where it looks like two sentences were strung together that shouldn't be. While you get the gist of the meaning, it's choppy to read and it can be hard to really understand the flow of what is being said.

I think someone should go through it - not to change the content! The content is very informative. But I think it just needs to be rephrased so as to flow smoothly. People will enjoy it way more that way; it's a very interesting and romantic subject. :) Just a note to whoever edits these things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.46.8.26 (talk) 05:26, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Classification

I am reclassifying this as a C since the references leave much to be desired. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Information

Only at one spot in the entire article does it mention the age of the debutantes (age 21). I've always understood that in the U.S., at least, the usual age for a girl's debut is 18. I hope those of you with more expertise about debuts will go over the article and add specific ages where appropriate. ElsaObuchowski (talk) 13:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)Elsa Obuchowski 6/24/11

Actually, the article said in the US, debutantes are ages 16 to 19. Today, many cotillion clubs, assemblies, etc., are changing the debut age to 21 because the legal drinking age is 21, not 18 years old as in the past. Issues with liability and the age of the deb's escorts have played into this change that is occurring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.71.2.216 (talk) 13:07, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

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Débutante → Debutante – The article was moved in 2009 without discussion, with this edit summary:

• moved Debutante to Débutante over redirect: The OED lists this term with the acute accent, prescribes only the French pronunciation, and does not mention the accent-less spelling as an alternative: http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50058435 [1]  Will Beback  talk  05:07, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The OED entry is now at [2]. However the two most recent citations in the OED both omit the accent. Merriam-Webster lists "debutante".[3] Google Ngram shows that the unaccented word is the overwhelming favorite.[4]   Will Beback  talk  05:07, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Ngram misses the overwhelming majority of diacritic marks, so the one above doesn't tell you anything relevant. "OED" here presumably refers to the 1989 edition. But it does not seem to represent Oxford's current thinking on this issue, as you can see here and here. Besides Merriam-Webster, linked above, the diacritic-free spelling of this word is given by Random House, and American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, MacMillan Dictionary, and Collins English Dictionary. (That's three American dictionaries, two British.) Kauffner (talk) 07:23, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. [After edit conflict:] The OED link above is not useful to editors in general, especially since the contents are undescribed. Let's do better than that. In fact the current OED entry is "débutant", with a lemma for "débutante". The option "debutant[e]" is not mentioned, though some citations have it.

An important note concerning Google ngrams: These are utterly misleading and unreliable for distinguishing "e" and "é". See ngrams for "in a Paris café,in a Paris cafe", 1990–2000. It is ridiculous to suppose that "in a Paris cafe" predominates like that. Compare Googlebooks evidence for "in a Paris cafe" (Preview and full view›Books›Jan 1, 1990–Dec 12, 2011›; and biased toward no acute), which usually ignores the distinction in question, for the same period. About a third of 100 hits are with the acute.

Noetica^Tea? 07:43, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Can you show any evidence that the version with the accent is still used more commonly? The OED's last citation with the accent is from 1904, while it's more recent cites are without it (for some reason the OED link worked earlier but now is behind a paywall). The more contemporary dictionaries don't use the accent. More Google results:

• ["Débutante" -"Debutante"] = about 7,720,000 results [5]
• ["Debutante" -"Débutante"] = about 23,000,000 results[6]

By that measure, the unaccented version seems almost three times as common.   Will Beback  talk  09:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• I get 1,090 / 32,300 ==> 3.4 percent usage for the diacritic. Kauffner (talk) 09:16, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, Will. That Google evidence is also badly compromised. On top of Google's unreliable reporting of diacriticals, the estimates it makes are wild and skittish. The algorithms used in generating them are not published, and subject to unnotified change.

When I vote at an RM, I am ready to be persuaded by sound evidence and argument – so long as the interests of real readers are really served. That's my sovereign principle. In this case, let's see a withdrawal of evidence that is so seriously questioned, and clear the air. I want the best outcome; and I opposed because it was not yet perfectly clear what that outcome might be. OK?

Noetica^Tea? 09:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Sure, let's use the best evidence available. I agree that Google is hard to use on these issues and appreciate your best efforts to find the right solution.   Will Beback  talk  09:35, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support move. Google is generally unhelpful in diacritics questions, so better to go with the form used by modern English dictionaries. Based on the above evidence it looks like "debutante" is the prevalent form in English. Jafeluv (talk) 14:55, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moist Sock

Débutantes would also wear pearls but many would also wear moist socks that belonged to the family.

What on earth is a Moist Sock, and what does it have to do with a debutante's jewellery choice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaddyMcMack (talk • contribs) 08:58, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Based on internet search for "Moist Sock", it seems to be sexual slang added as a crude joke. It was corrected by the time I read this. Now reads:

"Débutantes would also wear pearls but many would also wear jewellery that belonged to the family." Ken K. Smith (a.k.a. Thin Smek) (talk) 11:06, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Tagging User:PaddyMcMack. Ken K. Smith (a.k.a. Thin Smek) (talk) 17:01, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

External links modified

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Merge from Debs (ball)?

The following discussion is closed and will soon be archived: Original merge proposal closed. A new/different discussion to take place at Talk:Debs (ball)

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Seems like overlapping definition(s) enough for a merge (as subsection)? PPEMES (talk) 09:30, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. While there are some semantic parallels, per the discussion on the article's talk page (and the corresponding "entry" on the "Prom" article), the subject covered in Debs (ball) is actually more akin/analogous to the American "Prom". Certainly, per the other discussions on the article's talk page, some work is required. But, if a merge/redirect were to be undertaken, the more appropriate target would likely be Prom#Ireland. Despite the semantic similarities, there is little to no overlap with the "high society" concept discussed in the Debutante ball or Debutante articles. Neither would make for an appropriate target. (It'd be like re-targeting cocktail party to pub crawl :) ). Guliolopez (talk) 00:23, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

The "high society" scope you are insisting on may be part of the scope of this article, but it is hardly confined to that meaning. A meaning which today would be largely archaic? While Prom may be motivated as a standalone article for Ball (dance party), are you sure that is necessarly the case with the female guest topic? PPEMES (talk) 16:08, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Hiya. Sorry for the delayed response. I must have omitted to add this talk page to my watchlist, and so I only just saw your response.

In terms of the "high-society" element, while I don't really understand what you are saying, this article is effectively/exclusively about the historical and largely archaic meaning. I don't see how the proposed article/content (about a modern Irish school dance) would "fit" with that.

In terms of the "female guest" element, while I also don't really understand what you are saying, this article is effectively/exclusively about females. I don't see how the proposed article/content (which covers dances at boys/girls/mixed schools) would "fit" with that.

While I could, perhaps, understand an argument for a merge to Debutante ball (which could have been what you intended) or to Prom (which could perhaps be a "catchall" for final-year school dances globally), neither is what is proposed.

I do not agree that the proposed merge is appropriate. The stuff about an Irish school dance would be completely misplaced in the middle of this article. It just wouldn't fit. Apart from the small overlaps in terminology, there is almost no overlap in scope. Guliolopez (talk) 12:13, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

OK. A merge with Debutante seems not likely to succeed. Instead, I propose a continued, related discussion on Talk:Debs (ball). PPEMES (talk) 12:23, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

OK. I'll close this thread so. And we can continue the conversation there. Otherwise, as below and elsewhere, there will be a lot of confusion on what is being proposed and discussed. Guliolopez (talk) 17:53, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Merge to Debutante ball?

@Mgcsinc: and others: Having evaluated this article, doesn't it seems evident it should afterall simply be merged with Debutante ball? With lead section section stating somewhere that "participants are known as debutantes"? Doesn't all text contents seems to deal with different kinds of debutante balls anyway? PPEMES (talk) 12:33, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

No. At least in the UK debs did things other than going to balls. It's worth reading the article. However, a debs ball is an event attended by debs (and others) so a merge in the other direction is arguable (though probably still not a good idea). Thincat (talk) 11:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

N They are two completely different concepts. Zhl025 (talk) 08:37, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Closing, given the uncontested objections and no support. Klbrain (talk) 21:43, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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Debutante or débutante?

This article uses "debutante " and "débutante" (with an acute accent) inconsistently and should be standardised. The WP Manual of Style guidance is that "the use of diacritics (such as accent marks) for foreign words is neither encouraged nor discouraged; their usage depends on whether they appear in verifiable reliable sources in English". The vast majority of sources used in this article do not use the accent. The main use of the accent is in older sources, and modern usage seems to not use it. I propose changing the article to use "debutante" without the accent throughout, except in titles or citations which use the accent. Any comments? Masato.harada (talk) 10:33, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Merge from Debutante ball

Not all debutante events are balls, but it seems much of our coverage in this article is about balls. Debutante ball is very short and repeats what is already mentioned here, so merging and intentionally covering debutante balls here makes sense to me. -- Beland (talk) 17:29, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 14:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC)