Talk:Gąsawa massacre

This article was nominated for deletion on 14 September 2024. The result of the discussion was keep.

A fact from Gąsawa massacre appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 4 April 2013 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Grand Duke Leszek the White and a number of other Polish Piast dukes were ambushed in their baths during the 13th-century regicide and massacre at Gąsawa (pictured)?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2013/April. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Gąsawa massacre.

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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on November 24, 2019 and November 24, 2021.

Title

"Crime in Gąsawa" is not good English and unsurprisingly it gets no Google hits but this article. Neither, for the record, is "Bloodbath of Gąsawa". Given that as far as I can tell this event has no recognized name in English historiography, I propose Gąsawa incident. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:50, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I actually checked before deciding on the title. There's no gbook hits for "Gasawa Incident" either. I also checked "Murder in Gasawa", "Gasawa Killing" and "Gasawa Massacre". Zero. There is one hit for "Crime of Gasawa". Which is sort of like Crime of '73. But actually "Crime in Gasawa" is somewhat better stylistically than "of" in my opinion - I think the English is fine. "Incident" is not used in English and I don't think I've seen the equivalent used in Polish.Volunteer Marek 14:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As far as the "bloodbath" goes, that's certainly found just in Polish historiography. We can de-bold it if you think it appropriate.Volunteer Marek 14:31, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thinking about it a second more, I guess "Crime in Gasawa" could be misleading in the sense that it might suggest the article is about crime (theft, robbery, jaywalking) in the town of Gasawa rather than about this specific incident. Technically it should probably be "The Crime" but then we do get into stylistic awkwardness. So maybe "Crime of Gasawa" would be better.Volunteer Marek 14:32, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That was the problem; when it popped up in new article review and before I saw your name, I was like "weird, why would crime (petty thievery, etc.) in some little village of town be notable?". This is why I'd prefer incident, as long as we are inventing a name, might as well try for a non-ambiguous one. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:17, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We shouldn't invent a name ex nihilo though. In Polish the name of this is "Zbrodnia w Gasawie". There does not appear to be an established English name. If you translate "Zbrodnia w Gasawie" it's either "Crime of Gasawa" or "Crime in Gasawa". Not incident. That'd be weird. I'm thinking at this point that "Crime of Gasawa" would be better (plus it's got that one gbook hit in it's favor).Volunteer Marek 05:22, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As has been noted, "Crime in Gąsawa" suggests that the article deals with common criminality in some place called Gąsawa. The other variant, "Crime of Gąsawa", sounds as though the article discusses a crime that has been committed by someone named "Gąsawa".

"Incident" is too non-specific. "Mukden Incident" would mean little to someone unfamiliar with Japan's 1931 invasion of Manchuria.

On the other hand, what the article appears to describe is a massacre of political leaders, carried out at Gąsawa. So far, the only title that appeals to me is "The Gąsawa Massacre". Not "The Massacre of Gąsawa", which is clumsy and ambiguous, as it could more easily denote a massacre carried out against, rather than at, Gąsawa.

It is often dangerous to "translate literally".

Nihil novi (talk) 07:28, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I'd be fine with that ("Gasawa Massacre"). Unless anyone else has objections or wishes to make an argument, I'll move it to that title shortly.Volunteer Marek 18:40, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no accepted English name, i.e., nothing that rings the bell to an English reader, then a descriptive one is a correct approach IMO, in terms of usefulness: Assassination of Leszek the White. There is no need for wikipedians to invent English terminology where is none yet. One may list translations from Polish as redirects. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:07, 6 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Gąsawa Massacre has the advantage of being connected to one of the Polish terms; sounds better than crime. Assassination of Leszek is an option, but was he the only notable leader who died there at that time? Even if so, he wasn't the only targeted, right? I think massacre may be better. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:24, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The perpetrators and their motives remain unknown, there was evidently more than one victim, or at least target, and "Gąsawa Massacre" preserves the principle term in the original Polish title, "Zbrodnia gąsawska".

If "Gąsawa Massacre" is selected as the English title, the word "The" is unnecessary before "Gąsawa", since introductory article adjectives are generally dropped from Wikipedia article titles. Nihil novi (talk) 15:09, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I don't think it is necessary to capitalize "Massacre" - it is not an established proper name, it is just a descriptive title. Staszek Lem (talk) 18:11, 7 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Gąsawa massacre is wrong. It took me 5 minutes to figure out that no-one else was actually assassinated but the Leszek the White. Per wp:title (i.e. the rule of least astonishment), the most appropriate new title would probably be the actual fact which is simply Killing of Leszek the White. By the way, Zbrodnia gąsawska in this context literally means more like Assassination in Gąsawa, not the crime per se. Cheers, Poeticbent talk 09:21, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's several problems with putting Leszek in the title. First, he might not have even been the actual target. Second, I think he was the only DUKE killed, but not the only person. Jasienica says that the attackers killed people indiscriminately in their tents and beds. Oh, also the knight who saved Henry, Peregryn (whom I need to add to the article) was killed. Third, even if he was a target (I think he was, but not all sources agree), others were also clearly targeted. So while the assassination of Leszek is the most important thing that happened here, it would be misleading to focus the title on him.Volunteer Marek 18:06, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, all the names that are being proposed should of course be redirect to this article, whatever it's called in the end. I'm waiting on creating the redirects as that can make future moves cumbersome so it's best to settle on the name first.Volunteer Marek 18:07, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Once you clarify everything in mainspace, change the title to Gąsawa assassinations. Poeticbent talk 20:23, 8 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This English language source [1] calls it the "Gasawa tragedy" and says that's the name in Polish scholarship - which isn't really true. It also gets some other stuff wrong - it wasn't a battle, but an ambush. There was no "large army". It's not clear whether Odonic "arrived" with Swietopelk (most source say he was at the Congress and just provided info to Swietopelk). So take it for what it is.Volunteer Marek 01:44, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This one [2] does refer to it as "Crime in Gasawa", though not capitalized.Volunteer Marek 01:45, 12 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's a Polish publication and, if it uses the expression in isolation (I wasn't able to locate the actual context), shows the common insensitivity to English-language usage. Nihil novi (talk) 20:26, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

at DYK

Feel free to tweak the hook and otherwise comment: Template:Did you know nominations/Gąsawa massacre. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:53, 11 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Coverage

This article reads a little oddly. It starts with Motive, then moves on to Outcomes, without ever stating what happened. It would be helpful if someone with access to the sources could write up just who did what to whom and when. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 07:43, 12 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]