Talk:Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286

Continental Express

In the final report, it says that the plane was owned by Trans-Colorado Airlines and operating as Continental Express Flight 2286. This means that the title needs to be changed and it needs to be said on the page. 111.69.106.42 (talk) 08:49, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, it has a registration associated with Trans-Colorado Airlines and it was operating FOR Continental Express. MattChatt18 (talk) 09:09, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I agree--it was operating as Continental Express Flight 2286. Trans-Colorado Airlines was the company operating the flight, but that's not how the flight was advertised or identified. This page is misnamed. Unless someone strongly objects, I'll move it. Shelbystripes (talk) 01:12, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

OK, so. I think this article should remain as Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286. Although it was operating as Continental Express 2286, Trans-Colorado Airlines was its MAIN name. MattChatt18 (talk) 14:15, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

MattChatt18, can you point to a reliable source that lists the actual flight name as "Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286"? Because I can't. Even the NTSB report itself describes the flight as "Continental Express Flight 2286". The name of the operator was Trans-Colorado Airlines, but I can't find anything showing that as the name of the flight operated. If you have something as a counterpoint to that, I'd be more than happy to see it. Shelbystripes (talk) 17:23, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

I found one that you might or might not agree on: http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-reports/AAR89-01.pdf

I don't know if that's reliable, but here it is anyway. MattChatt18 (talk) 18:37, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

MattChatt18, of course the NTSB's final report is reliable. The problem is that it does not say what you're claiming it says. In fact, it says the opposite. The title of the report lists the name of the operating company (Trans-Colorado Airlines, Inc.) and the flight number (Flight 2286). However, it clarifies three separate times that the flight was actually (quoting from the Executive Summary here): "a Trans-Colorado Airlines Inc., Fairchild Metro III, operating as Continental Express flight 2286". It's stated that it operated as "Continental Airlines Flight 2286" three times, on pages ii, v, and 1 of the report. Nowhere does it claim that the flight ever operated as "Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286". Therefore I ask you again, to please produce a reliable source that says the flight operated as Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286. Can you do that, or not? Shelbystripes (talk) 15:31, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

No, I can't. Let's just leave it as it is. MattChatt18 (talk) 15:50, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, MattChatt18, but that is not how Wikipedia works. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the article should reflect the common name of the subject matter. In all sources that I can find, the common name for the flight was United Express Flight 2286. If you agree that there are no reliable sources showing the flight was operated or known as Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286, then the page must be renamed for accuracy. Shelbystripes (talk) 17:48, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Come on Shelby, let's not do an edit war and let's find an expert on this. MattChatt18 (talk) 17:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

MattChatt18, why am I not an expert on this? You've already conceded my main point, which is that there are no sources describing the flight as "Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286". There should be no edit war, because you are presenting literally no basis for your position, and the current article name violates WP:COMMONNAME. Please provide a cogent argument for why this article should not be renamed per WP:COMMONNAME. If you can't, then I will rename the article. Thanks. Shelbystripes (talk) 19:00, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

One more try, it still belonged to Trans-Colorado Airlines, but had the Continental Express brand. Look at the registration: N68TC. "TC" means Trans-Colorado. Still belonged to Trans-Colorado when it was operating for Continental Express. FOR THE LAST TIME, are you happy or not?! MattChatt18 (talk) 19:38, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

MattChatt18, I am not disputing that the flight was operated by Trans-Colorado Airlines. Once again, this is about WP:COMMONNAME, and this flight is commonly referred to as "Continental Express Flight 2286" and not "Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286". It is not about who the aircraft owner was or the aircraft registration number. Per WP:COMMONNAME, which I suggest you read before responding any further, Wikipedia favors the most commonly used name for a subject. Since you already conceded you can't produce any sources that describe the flight as "Trans-Colorado Express Flight 2286", I don't know why you're objecting to what is clearly a necessary name change. Shelbystripes (talk) 04:58, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Note that this conforming change is consistent with other Wikipedia pages. See Continental Express Flight 2574 as an example of another Continental Express incident, where the name of the flight (and not the operator) was used. Shelbystripes (talk) 05:08, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

I have also added multiple reliable sources to the article, clearly demonstrating that the flight was/is known as "Continental Express Flight 2286". Hopefully this resolves the issue. Shelbystripes (talk) 05:41, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I'm so sorry, Shelby. I misread the sources. MattChatt18 (talk) 09:20, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

I believe Shelbystripes (talk · contribs) page move to be incorrect The NTSB report for this crash uses 'Flight 2286' thirty five times in the first 42 pages or through Appendix A*. Of those 35 times, Trans-Colorado immediately precedes Flight 2286 33 times. The title page of the Accident report says Trans Colorado. The first page of the report, where the crest of the NTSB is, says Trans-Colorado. Shelbystripes argument that the NTSB report makes the case for Contintental Express to be the flight article's name is clearly wrong based on the fact that the report 33 out of 35 times refers to the flight as Trans-Colorado.

The additions to the article using Mayday as a source are also problematic. That tv show is a dramatization and has been ruled not a reliable source for accident articles[1].

Pinging more aviation/aviation accident editors so they can weigh in on the proper name for this article- @MilborneOne:, @Ahunt:, @Mjroots:, @YSSYguy:, @Petebutt:

• Appendix B comes on page 33 and it is a transcript of the flight. Which uses Trans-Colorado not Continental Express when referring the flight name. Just more proof of what I am saying....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

An interesting question it is clear from the report that the aircraft was using the callsign "Trans Colorado 2286" and not "Continental 2286" so legally was a TCE flight, I believe the article should be Trans Colorado Flight 2286. MilborneOne (talk) 15:39, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

• WilliamJE and MilborneOne, please consider the following:
  • Per WP:COMMONNAME: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources." (This is why, for example, Wikipedia uses Gimli Glider instead of "Air Canada Flight 143".)
  • In the Executive Summary and Factual Information sections of the NTSB report, both begin by stating that the flight was "operating as Continental Express flight 2286". This is mentioned before it refers to the flight as "Trans-Colorado Flight 2286" (which isn't used in the executive summary at all).
  • The article already contains multiple citations from reliable sources (the Washington Post and United Press International, a major international news service) where the flight is described as "Continental Express Flight 2286".
  • The Associated Press also uses "Continental Express Flight 2286".
  • The Durango Herald also describes it as Continental Express Flight 2286. Note that this is a retrospective written years after the incident, and "Continental Express Flight 2286" is still being used.
  • Because the flight is frequently referred to in English-language reliable sources as "Continental Express Flight 2286", including the NTSB report itself, per WP:COMMONNAME the page title should be "Continental Express Flight 2286". This is a site for general readers (who are familiar with the flight as "Continental Express Flight 2286"), not the aviation community. What is buried in the body or appendices of an NTSB report is not dispositive, especially when the NTSB has acknowledged the commonly known operating name of the flight. I would agree with putting something like "(also known as Trans-Colorado Flight 2286)" in the lede, but it is clear per Wikipedia standards that the current page name is correct. Shelbystripes (talk) 16:30, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
• I would like to add that this edit was consistent with Continental Express Flight 2574, which is the appropriate, commonly known name for that flight. It was operated with callsign "Jetlink 2574", as noted in the NTSB report, but the NTSB described the flight at the outset as "Continental Express Flight 2574" and the media used that name to describe the flight/incident. Shelbystripes (talk) 16:37, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
  • News reports about the name may or may not be accurate. You cite 2 instances of the report being Continental Express. As I already pointed out those same NTSB report sections call the flight Trans-Colorado Flight 2286 33 times, where as it says Continental Express just those two times....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 16:51, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
    • No, WilliamJE, I cited four news reports, including two that are already linked in the article with the parts referring to "Continental Express Flight 2286" quoted in the citation. "Continental Express Flight 2286" is the name most frequently used in English-language reliable sources (which refers to the number of sources, not just the number of times it's used in a single source), since it's also even used in the NTSB report. And as I already pointed out, per WP:COMMONNAME an "official" name is not dispositive. The important factor is how the name is used; the name "Continental Express Flight 2286" (and not "Trans-Colorado Flight 2286") is used in the NTSB's summary of the accident, and is also what appears in the news media reports both contemporaneously and afterward. Thus per WP:COMMONNAME the title should clearly be "Continental Express Flight 2286". Shelbystripes (talk) 16:57, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
    • I would additionally point out that these are highly reputable sources and you have no evidence that they made an error. Shelbystripes (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
      • Don't ping me every time. This page is on my watch list. Thank you.
      • 1- The NTSB title page says Trans-Coloardo. That's more prevalent than the summary as it the first page of the report of the report after the summary and TOC which says Trans-Colorado next to the NTSB seal. 2- News reports can butcher facts all the time. They also repeat the butchered facts again and again ad nauseum[2] till the mistake is viewed as correct....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 17:06, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
        • WilliamJE, the NTSB report title says "Trans-Colorado Airlines, Inc.", giving the corporate name of the airline. It is standard practice for them to give the corporate name of the airline, and then the flight number. This is not dispositive. And once again, you are ignoring that these are reputable sources and reflect how the flight is known to the general public. The "fact" I'm presenting here is that "Continental Express Flight 2286" is the name most frequently used in English-language reliable sources. This is true, whether or not you agree with it, I have demonstrated that it is how the flight is referenced in English-language sources that are widely considered to be reliable on Wikipedia. Bald claims that the media can butcher facts is not a reason to ignore WP:COMMONNAME, which is what you are advocating. Shelbystripes (talk) 17:14, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
        • Another source in the article, from The Los Angeles Times, doesn't mention the flight number but describes the flight as a "Continental Express airliner". What more do you need to demonstrate that the flight was/is commonly known as a Continental Express flight? And if these aren't reliable sources, why are they allowed as references on the article page itself? Shelbystripes (talk) 17:16, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
        • I've lost patience with you. First you PING ME AGAIN AFTER I SAY TO STOP DOING IT. Second, you attack me 'I cited four news reports' for saying two times when in fact I wrote 'You cite 2 instances of the report' that is the NTSB report. Obviously your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. So I repeat= DON'T PING ME AGAIN....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 17:32, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
          • WilliamJE, this is how I normally reply to people on talk pages. Thank you for your understanding. I now see that I misunderstood your comment about "2 instances"; I thought you were referring to the number of other sources I had cited, which was four (now five). My confusion stems from the fact that WP:COMMONNAME refers to the number of reliable sources available, and not the number of times a name is used in a single source. Since that is the relevant issue, I just assumed that's what you were addressing, and misinterpreted what you said. I did not mean to "attack" you, only to correct what I thought was a misstatement. That was an error on my part. Shelbystripes (talk) 17:54, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Everyone, stop arguing. I know we are having some confusion with the proper name of the airplane, but this dispute is getting ridiculous. I think we should identify the sources more closely and gain a consensus about the name of the accident flight. Thank you. MattChatt18 (talk) 17:57, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

MattChatt18, thank you. I'll wait for others to chime in. Shelbystripes (talk) 18:08, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

MattChatt18, I've asked for the WikiProject Aviation community to weigh in and help form a consensus. Clearly this would benefit from more people's input. Shelbystripes (talk) 22:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

He has weighed in (and I asked him to do the same here) and the result[3] is not one you're going to like....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 22:41, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

WilliamJE, the only place that matters for consensus-building is here. But putting that aside, I've asked for the full WikiProject Aviation community to weigh in, and await the opinion of other editors to resolve this impasse. Shelbystripes (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Stop pinging me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have just asked an administrator to issue a warning for violation of WP:Harassment. If you don't wish to get blocked, I suggest you never ping me ever again. Learn how to read....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 22:54, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

WilliamJE, this really isn't a conversation for this thread. I thought I had already sufficiently responded to you on my talk page. If not, I'm happy to continue discussing there as much as you'd like. Shelbystripes (talk) 23:12, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Stop pinging me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have now asked two administrator to issue a warning for violation of WP:Harassment....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:34, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Aviation Safety Network

seeTrans-Colorado Airlines flight 2286--Petebutt (talk) 22:59, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Petebutt, that page also gives a flight number of "2268", so I don't think it's a reliable source. Shelbystripes (talk) 23:08, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

An editor of Aviation articles calling ASN not a reliable source. That's the biggest joke I have heard today....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:20, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

WilliamJE, the page lists the wrong flight number. Are you denying that? Shelbystripes (talk) 23:24, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Stop pinging me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have now asked two administrator to issue a warning for violation of WP:Harassment.

ASN says 'Trans-Colorado Airlines flight 2286 departed Denver-Stapleton Airport at 18:20 for a flight to Durango and Cortez.' Again your reading comprehension....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 23:34, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

WilliamJE, you didn't answer. Are you denying that the page has a factual error? Shelbystripes (talk) 23:53, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Way to go Shelbystripes, he tells you to stop pinging him so what do you do? You ping him. Apart from that, saying "factual error" is overstating things; it's just a typo, the sort of thing we have all done and that I have seen happen several times just this week. It is drawing an extremely long bow to say that ASN is unreliable because someone transposed two digits in a number and didn't notice. YSSYguy (talk) 00:24, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

If you had stopped blowing off for just one second, you would have had time to send ASN a message to point out their error, which i have just done!!!!!!!!!!!--Petebutt (talk) 02:45, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Ok, here is what I have said: "I've seen your comment, WilliamJE. I think the article should be Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286, not Continental Express Flight 2286. Although it had the Continental Express brand on at the time of the crash, its main name was Trans-Colorado Airlines. More evidence is that it had a registration associated with Trans-Colorado Airlines: N68TC. 'TC' stands for Trans-Colorado, so the article needs to be renamed". Now please, let's gain a consensus in a non-shouting way, and if you don't stop arguing, I WILL ADD THE FACTUAL ACCURACY DISPUTE TAG UP. MattChatt18 (talk) 08:32, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Received from Harro Ranter:-

Re: Typo HR Harro Ranter

 Reply|

Today, 09:31 You Thanks for your comment, we will correct this.

kind regards,

Harro Ranter CEO Aviation Safety Network - an exclusive service of the Flight Safety Foundation hr@aviation-safety.net http://aviation-safety.net

On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 4:44 AM, Peter Butt <hr@aviation-safety.net> wrote: You received this e-mail message through your website:

Title: Adres: https://aviation-safety.net/about/contact.php Name: Peter Butt Email: petebutt43@hotmail.com Subject: Typo Comments: on:- https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880119-3 you have a typo error giving the flight number as 2268 in the table, but correctly as 2286 in the text. Please can you amend the table. Thanks Submit:

IP: 87.101.134.146 Points: 0

--Petebutt (talk) 08:49, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Which name?

So guys, which name is Definitely the name suitable for the article: Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286 or Continental Express Flight 2286? MattChatt18 (talk) 12:13, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I say Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 00:16, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I still have not seen a single person address the fact that the accident is commonly referred to as "Continental Express Flight 2286" or a "Continental Express flight" in most news coverage. Since Wikipedia is for the general public, and "Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286" violates WP:COMMONNAME, I continue to assert that the name should stay as-is. Shelbystripes (talk) 01:17, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Shelby, if you don't let us change it back to Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286, I will report this as a third violation of WP:Harassment and you will be blocked INDEFINITELY from editing this article! MattChatt18 (talk) 09:29, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I want to point out that I never said I wouldn't "let" anyone change the name. I still believe that using the name "Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286" violates WP:COMMONNAME, and I thus disagree with this name change, which is my right to do as much as I want. But I only reverted once on the name when WilliamJE initially renamed it; the Talk page consensus was to keep it at "Continental Express Flight 2286" and he violated Talk page consensus by doing so. You've changed your opinion since then, and I'm not going to revert against consensus. I do, however, hope that in the future more people join in, and someone can sufficiently explain how this doesn't violate WP:COMMONNAME. Shelbystripes (talk) 16:23, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with you, WilliamJE. You can change the article to Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286. If Shelby reverts, I will request INDEFINITE blocking of him for harrasment. MattChatt18 (talk) 11:15, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Matt, go ahead and return the page where it originally was. No one supports Shelby's name change....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 11:56, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm having a little trouble here. Can you do the rest, please. Thanks. MattChatt18 (talk) 12:46, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

WP:CUTPASTE is bad

Guys, for the record, WP:CUTPASTE moves are a very bad thing on a wiki. It breaks the attribution required by copyright licenses, amongst other things. I have tagged the article with {{histmerge}}, as it now requires administrator attention to clean up the mess. I also did my best to get redirects in place so that links from elsewhere are not broken. I offer absolutely no opinion on which name is correct, I just spotted this in passing and put the necessary tags on it to get it cleaned up. Murph9000 (talk) 13:24, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Still going on

Shelby has pinged me again. I thought I was done with him. NOW SHELBY, STOP HARASSING US RIGHT NOW! OR YOU WILL BE BLOCKED INDEFINITELY. WillamJE and the others agree with me, and you are STILL going about the name change! No-one supports your name change proposal, so there! Stop harassing right now or I will report it. Give us a break already! MattChatt18 (talk) 16:31, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

First, I pinged you once today. On my own talk page. And then you asked me to stop (the first time you asked me not to do that). And I replied to say I would stop, without "pinging" you again. This is exactly why I get so confused when people accuse me of "harassment", I am literally doing nothing wrong at this point, I said that I would not revert the page name again without a consensus on the Talk page, I even apologized to WilliamJE on my talk page already, and now I'm being yelled at louder than ever. This makes no sense to me, and it doesn't seem like it's appropriate for this Talk page since it's now about the conversation on my own Talk page. Please keep discussing there, it doesn't seem appropriate here since it's no longer about this article. Shelbystripes (talk) 16:36, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I have added enough evidence to say the article should be Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286, like the registration, callsign, it even has the name Trans-Colorado Airlines on the front of EVERY NTSB report. Now please, stop harassing me and WilliamJE and go away or I will report to an administrator! MattChatt18 (talk) 16:40, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Look, this is exactly why I have trouble understanding how to behave on this Talk page. I do not understand what part of the above comment I left was wrong. I directly addressed the comment, I conceded (again, after doing so on my own Talk page and in a prior above comment) that my opinion is outnumbered and I have no intention of reverting again, I acknowledged to everyone that I apologized to WilliamJE on my talk page, and I asked that (since this seems to be about me personally at this point and not this article) the conversation should go back to my Talk page, where we were already discussing. And I didn't "ping" anyone with it. This no longer seems appropriate to discuss here, since it isn't really about this page's topic matter anymore, but I would welcome anyone explaining what at this point I am doing that is "harassment" that warrants a threat of being banned indefinitely. Shelbystripes (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Also, since you keep bringing up the issue, I want to point out that all you are doing is proving what you believe is the "official" name. WP:COMMONNAME requires using the most commonly used name in English-language sources, and the page still has more English-language sources using "Continental Express" than "Trans-Colorado". (The NTSB report uses both, so it doesn't cut against "Continental Express" either.) WP:COMMONNAME bluntly states not to rely on an "official" name and to instead use what is used in most English-language sources. So the "proof" you mention above doesn't prove that "Trans-Colorado" is the right name per WP:COMMONNAME. This is not saying that I will revert, not unless I've persuaded you to change your mind, but I do have the right to respond to you on the Talk page if I believe you're misrepresenting Wikipedia's requirements. Shelbystripes (talk) 17:27, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

WHAT?!! You think I'm misrepresenting Wikipedia's requirements?! WORST. POINT. EVER! Stop this right now! You are ONE step closer to being INDEFINITELY blocked! MattChatt18 (talk) 17:30, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

One more thing, the article can still mention it was operating as Continental Express Flight 2286, but Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286 is the MAIN subject of the article. MattChatt18 (talk) 16:55, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

We can rely on an "OFFICIAL" name. Now, I'll stop if you stop, please. MattChatt18 (talk) 17:33, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Also about the "OFFICIAL" name, Me and the other editors CLEARLY ASSERT it. MattChatt18 (talk) 17:42, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The article name

We are keeping the article name as Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286. Also, Shelby, I clearly think you are committing WP:OWN. MattChatt18 (talk) 17:51, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

It is clear that I am not allowed to leave replies on this Talk page without being shouted down or personally attacked, so I'm done. Shelbystripes (talk) 18:09, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, now we are talking. Bye. MattChatt18 (talk) 18:11, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I've noticed that there's some falsified altered evidence regarding names. Pinging those active on this topic - User:MattChatt18, User:Shelbystripes, User:WilliamJE : can you confirm or deny awareness or involvement? Haven't searched page history to see who introduced it. --Elvey^(t•c) 19:13, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

What "falsified evidence"? And, arising from Elvey's last edit summary, what fraud? YSSYguy (talk) 19:19, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Where is your proof @Elvey:? WP:NPA reads 'Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki. No proof but accusations of fraud and falsified evidence, and I am aware of none, are violations of NPA. BTW you haven't pinged anyone....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 19:33, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Not accusing anyone of anything. Striking what's been interpretd as doing that. I don't understand "BTW you haven't pinged anyone." --Elvey^(t•c) 21:02, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Come on, we are not doing this again! We reached a consensus and that is Trans-Colorado 2286. See Wikipedia:CCC for more. MattChatt18 (talk) 21:05, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi MattChatt18, I know it can be tiresome repeating the same arguments time and time again, but new people become involved in topics all the time, they all deserve a friendly and warm welcome. Please try not to be discouraging with slightly aggressive or negative messages. Nick (talk) 22:03, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Nobody at the moment is making a new argument about the title of the article. As I told Shelbystripes, Consensus can change. The topic can be re-opened. Matt or I have reason to be annoyed about Elvey's statements. Shc used the word fraud in an edit summary and falsified up above. Statements like that fail WP:AGF even if you dismiss them as a violation of WP:NPA. The one thing you fixed in the article if it was done by me, was an innocent mistake....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 22:51, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

New Consensus determination

I see Nick has since corrected a misquotation from the Washington Post that was evidence for the current name but is now evidence for a name change. Given the evidence shifts, it's time to redetermine consensus. Looks to me like there's a clear winner: http://www.googlefight.com/trans-colorado+airlines+flight+2286-vs-continental+express+flight+2286.php 805 vs 1230 for the WP:COMMONNAME being "Continental Express ..." Also, I remind all that WP:CIVIL is a policy. And that in order to follow AGF, one must AGF even when (especially when) deciding whether to to accuse another editor of violating AGF. I'm guessing this'll close no consensus. Hopefully not tho. --Elvey^(t•c) 00:13, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

NTSB report says Trans-Colorado 33 times, Continental Express twice. The title page of the Accident report says Trans Colorado. The first page of the report, where the crest of the NTSB is, says Trans-Colorado. Googlefight isn't a reason to change the name.

You don't write fraud in an edit summary and don't accuse people of falsehoods without proof. Put up the proof for your statements. Otherwise you violated NPA. Your civility barnstar to an editor who was asked to stop pinging another editor multiple times to the point an administrator told them to stop is appalling....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 01:17, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, it was me who changed Continental Express Flight 2286 to Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286:corrected a misquotation from the Washington Post that was evidence for the current name but is now evidence for a name change. That was my bad. I may have induced some confusion on you. MattChatt18 (talk) 12:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Consensus? What consensus?

All I see are two bullies bending a rational adult to their will. While you could have made your case using actual accidents and incidents (Colgan, Comair, and SkyWest come to mind) listed on Wiki itself, the two article namers chose to tear down the logical arguments made by another user. ...William, you are emotionally invested in a minor naming issue to the point of WP:OWN. Of course, I'm not nearly as well-versed in Wikithis and Wikithat and Wikidickydooda as you are, but I seem to recall some advice about removing yourself from a topic when you can no longer be rational about the issue. You absolutely lost it, more than once, on Shelbystripes. You got your way because you and MattChatt18 simply beat Shelbystripes down. You never made a real argument. You never provided solid evidence for changing the article's name. I know Jimbo has an alternative definition of consensus, but whatever passes for a consensus on this page doesn't fit his or the one in the dictionary. Throwing yourself on the floor and pitching a fit like a two-year-old is unbecoming of an editor. The accusations you made were shocking. I realize it's been a year, but it rankles me that you got your way like this. Feel free to try the same tactics on me. My entire life isn't wrapped up in Wiki, so screaming at me, slapping sanctions down on my talk page or crying to an admin that I was mean to you isn't going to get you very far because editing here is largely a lost cause as far as I'm concerned, thanks in large part to BS like this.

I strongly suggest you look into how codeshare agreements work within individual airlines. SkyWest, which operates flights for multiple majors, is a different sort of entity than Simmons or Republic. It would be worth finding out what kind of relationship Continental and Trans-Colorado had, if anyone is truly interested in accuracy over agenda. If you're unwilling to budge, maybe I'll actually take the time to ask an admin to intervene, because this is ludicrous. With all that being said, here is collection of articles that follow the same naming convention NTSB did in this accident:

There was a whole spate of American Eagle crashes, but Flight 4184 is perhaps the most notable. Operated by Simmons Airlines, it's known in aviation circles as the Roselawn crash.

How many people would recognize United Express 3411 if the purists insisted on referring to it by its operator, Republic Airline?

Northwest Airlink 5719 was operated by Express Airlines I.

United Express 5925 was operated by Great Lakes Airlines.

Continental Express 2574 was operated by Britt Airways, Inc.

A very small sampling, but I'll add more if necessary to reinforce my point. Or go look at all the American Eagle listings. Telcia (talk) 08:24, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

• It appears one of the editors who threatened another editor with a ban is no longer active, so I guess there really isn't a consensus anymore, is there? Another user supported Shelbystripes and was promptly ignored. On Shelby's talk page, support was claimed from other users, but I don't see it her. I support Shelbystripes. I hope the guy who happens to be the biggest contributor to the aviation workshop or whatever it's called isn't allowed to canvasss that community for support when it's clear the weight of the real evidence is against him. He hasn't responded here. If a few days pass and nobody responds, maybe I'll be bold and revert the title myself per WP:COMMONNAME. Telcia (talk) 19:12, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Telcia, I continue to support Continental Express Flight 2286 as the proper name for this flight and event. It's the only factually correct name. Shelbystripes (talk) 21:16, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
    • I'm not a bully. I said sorry to Shelby when the discussion was closed. See WP:CCC for more information. I will not harass Shelby again. I'm done with this page. MattChatt18 (talk) 12:54, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
      • I was only confused about which title should go up. Please don't blame me. I won't do it ever again. MattChatt18 (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Coordinates are low accuracy

When I looked at the coordinates giving on Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286, no seconds were listed on either the latitude or longitude. Most accident articles provide more precise coordinates. Will (Talk - contribs) 19:13, 9 December 2020 (UTC)