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Talk:Conmaicne

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Why a long I (í)?

[edit]

They say that curiosity killed the cat…I was curious about why these articles use a long I in the name. The corresponding Irish language article does not and it doesn’t seem to fit with the etymology given on the page. Is there any good reason for this? At first I thought I had seen this somewhere, but maybe it was here! I’ve looked at quite a few of the cited sources now and none of them have a long I, e.g. Annals of the Four Masters, Foras Feasa ar Éirinn, O’Donovan’s The Topographical Poems of John O’Dubhagain and Giolla na Naomh O’Huidhrin, Knox’s The History of the County of Mayo, to the close of the sixteenth century and A Dictionary of Celtic Mythology. Somehow this seems to have become the accepted form (& a lot of page renaming happened in 2019/20 to align with it) so I’ve tried to create a timeline of edits to figure out how we got here. It’s a bit long-winded, but I think it’s good to know people’s reasoning in choosing these names.

  • 1 July 2005 — Mac Duach moved Conmaicne Mara to Conmhaicne Mara
  • 8 July 2005 — Bastique moved Conmhaicne Mara back to Conmaicne Mara
  • 17 Aug 2009‎ — Fergananim moved Conmaicne Mara to Conmhaícne Mara (summary: add fada)
  • 17 Aug 2009 — Fergananim moved Conmaicne to Conmhaícne (summary: add fada)
  • 11 Sep 2009 — Fergananim moved page to Máenmaige (summary: correct name)
  • 25 Aug 2019 — Nmclough moved page Máenmaige to Conmaicne Máenmaige (summary: The Máenmaige were a branch of Conmaicne in descent and this is most common name form)
  • 25 Aug 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmaicne Máenmaige to Conmhaícne Máenmaige (summary: Align spelling with Conmhaícne Mara (Connamara) article)
  • 26 Aug 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Máenmaige to Conmhaícne Mheáin (summary: The irish spelling is corrupted in Irish Annals; This spelling is consistent with related territories (i.e. Conmhaicne Mara, Connamara).)
  • 26 Aug 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Mheáin to Conmhaícne Mheáin Maigh (summary: All names should resolve to this accurate irish place name)
This last, in particular, seems like it might be ‘original research’. We shouldn’t be deciding what is “corrupt” in the annals. It’s unlikely that the element written maen/maon in the annals is related in any way to the modern word meán (Old Irish medón). Speculative and folk etymology is abundant in this area and we should be cautious about including them without very rigorous citations. Taken at face value, the word means ‘dumb’ not ‘middle’. A quick series of searches shows that M(h)eáin Maigh leads ultimately only back here; Maenmag/Maenmaige/Maenmhaighe leads to a small number of academic articles.
  • 26 Aug 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmaicne Annaly to Conmhaícne Angaile (summary: Align spelling with other Conmaicne articles and Irish spelling, i.e. Conmhaícne Mara (Connamara) article)
  • 26 Aug 2019 — Nmclough moved page Cluain Conmaicne to Cluain Conmhaícne (summary: Redirect to correct irish spelling)
  • 26 Aug 2019 Cenel Luachán created by Nmclough (still linked on this page as Conmhaícne Cenel Luacháin)
  • 26 Aug 2019 — Nmclough moved page Cenel Luachán to Conmaicne Luchan (summary: Align article spelling with all Conmhaícne articles, i.e. the Conmaice Mara (Connamara) article)
  • 26 Aug 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmaicne Luchan to Conmhaícne Luacháin (summary: Align spelling with other Conmaicne articles .. i.e. Conmhaícne Mara (Connamara) spelling)
  • 26 Aug 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Luacháin to Conmhaícne Cenel Luacháin (summary: Expand the name irish spelling)
  • 23 Mar 2020 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Cenel Luacháin to Cenel Luacháin (summary: Another name for these peoples)
  • 8 Sep 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmaicne Cuile Tolad to Conmhaícne Cúile Tuired (summary: redirect english to gaelic spelling)
  • 8 Sep 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Cúile Tuired to Conmhaícne Cúile Tolad (summary: Tolad is more a common (but heavily corrupted) spelling)
  • 8 Sep 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Cúile Tolad to Conmhaícne Cúile Tuireadh (summary: Finally, for main page, align spelling with Cath Maige Tuired)
  • 9 Sep 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Cúile Tuireadh to Conmhaícne Cúile Tolad (summary: over redirect: Align spelling with MacNeill)
  • 9 Sep 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Cúile Tolad to Conmhaícne Cúile Tuireadh (summary: over redirect: Stokes says "Magh Tuireadh"; O'Cuiv say "Muigh Tuiredh" - so Tuireadh)
  • 9 Sep 2019 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Cúile Tuireadh to Conmhaícne Cúile Tuiredh (summary: Tuiredh is defined by http://edil.qub.ac.uk/42381 not Tuireadh)
  • 1 Apr 2020 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Cúile Tuiredh to Conmhaícne Cúile (summary: Correct simplified name)
  • 1 Apr 2020 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Cúile to Conmhaícne Cuile (summary: Final form)
  • 1 Apr 2020 — Nmclough moved page Conmhaícne Cuile to Conmaicne Cuile (summary: Final English form.)
  • 10 Sep 2019 — Multiple moves by Nmclough → Cenéoil Dubáin → Conmhaícne Cenél Dubáin → Conmaicne Cenel Dubain → Conmaicne Cenéoil Dubáin → Conmhaícne Cenéoil Dubáin → Conmaicne Dúna Móir → Conmhaícne Dúna Móir (edit summary: final true spelling)
More original research? Dúna is fairly obscure; a rare genitive of dún (more commonly dúin in Old Irish). The Dictionary of the Irish Language cites three occurrences: Laws V 302 LVI, Silva Gadelica p. 269 l. 12 & Trans. of the Ossianic Society IV p. 198 l. 27.
The use with the Conmaicne might have originated with O’Donovan’s The Tribes and Customs of Hy-Many where there’s a brief mention of Conmaicne Duna Moir. This is then quoted in Royal Inauguration in Gaelic Ireland C. 1100-1600: A Cultural Landscape Study in a ‘corrected’ form: Conmhaicne Dúna Móir.
O’Donovan’s The Topographical Poems of John O’Dubhagain and Giolla na Naomh O’Huidhrin contains a reference to Conmaicne of Dunmor in a note (#320, pg. xlii). The (Irish language) poem the note refers to uses Conṁaicne Duine móir (another variant genitive).

Other names used in the article

  • Conmaicne na Gaillimhe, Conmaicne Mhaigh Eo, Conmaicne Ros Comáin.
While these are fine titles in Irish, do they convey useful information to the average English speaker? I think Conmaicne Galway, Conmaicne Mayo and Conmaicne Roscommon would be more appropriate.
  • Conmaicne Meic Oirbsen Máir, Conmhaícne Conmaicne Sléibe Formaile, Conmhaícne Conmaicne Maigh Rein, Conmaicne Maigh Nissi.
Need checking for widespread usage, but these look like old forms which is often how these groups are named.

General principles

Wikipedia policy is to use the commonly used English name, but that’s not always very clear in this subject area. For ancient tuatha it’s common to use the name as it appears in the annals, usually an Old Irish form where lenition is not marked on several letters, including M (Conmaicne rather than Conmhaicne or Conṁaicne), but when referring to later divisions often the qualifier is the anglicised word (e.g. Dunmore rather than an (?) old genitive Dúna Móir or a modern genitive Dhún Mór).

A further complication is that many of the easily available sources are from the 17th–19th centuries and their choices of nomenclature can sometimes be very idiosyncratic, prescriptive and antiquarian. There are also usually several variant forms to choose from.

Conmhaícne

It seems clear to me that this form is plain wrong and should be removed. It doesn’t fit with the word’s etymology and I can’t find it in any source apart from those derived from Wikipedia.

On the other hand, here is the entry for maicne in RIA’s Dictionary of the Irish Language and the form conmaicne appears under a number of headwords. The modern form conmhaicne appears in Ó Dónaill’s Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla, but with a more general meaning (Hist: Kindred, tribe, people.), though I don’t think this word is in common use apart from references to the peoples so called. There are only 4 occurrences in Nua-Chorpas na Gaeilge and none have that meaning.

Both conmaicne and conmhaicne are found multiple times in RIA’s Historical Irish Corpus/Corpas Stairiúil na Gaeilge but conmhaícne never appears.

Entries in O’Donovan’s edition of the Annals tend to use conmaicne in earlier entries and conmhaicne in later ones.

We probably should be using one of these two forms, but it might take a bit more work to figure out which is in current usage. ⚜ Moilleadóir ✍ 14:37, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As I was tagged here for something I did decades ago, I might as well mention that there is a guide to style for Irish names and topics, particularly with regard to English and Irish language spellings. Something that, if it doesn't clear this particular matter up, should at least include participants and watchers of that page. (See WP:IRISH) Bastique ☎ call me! 03:00, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, I rarely login to wikipedia. Your research is convincing. I'm in favor of simplification and maicne looks authoritative. I may have followed prior pattern. I believe this was corrected in June 2023. ~nmclough Nmclough (talk) 22:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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