Talk:Cob (horse)

Thanks for the terrific additional material in this article. I went in and did a bunch of wikilinking and some cleanup. Copying the rulebook wholesale is frowned upon in wikiland, so I cited the most direct quote and reworded the rest. Did a touch of other cleanup, I am a compulsive WikiFairy. Thanks again for the new material! Montanabw^(talk) 19:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Cheers. Problem with the picture though - it really isn't a true cob (the fact that it is plaited is a clue for a start, it is more of a small hunter over here) - but I can't find a copyright-free image of a "proper" cob. I'll keep looking, though. Katdib 09:02, 3 October 2007 (UTC) Kat

The image was from Flickr, I think taken in Ireland. Not sure if the braiding/plaiting rules are universal in both the UK and Ireland...? Check the image at Driving (horse) which is of a section D welsh cob...maybe worth adding. Be nice to have one horse under saddle and one in harness, perhaps. Good luck image-hunting. Montanabw^(talk) 01:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

All cobs should be hogged (show cobs) or shown with long manes (welsh cobs/vanners) in both teh UK and Ireland - whoever took this photo got the caption wrong from the looks of it. I can't work out how to fill in the licence form to upload pictures either though 207.138.98.253 14:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC) Kat

Oh, and can we be careful with the wikilinks - working cobs perform a ridden show, not what Americans call a "halter show" (which I presume is similar to our "running up"?) 207.138.98.253 14:41, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Definitely a terminology problem. Let's get it clarified! (smile) Help me figure out a way to phrase this so it doesn't confuse people in different countries, the ideal is to do something that makes sense to everyone (even if we have to say something like, if were doing an automobile article, "the place where the engine goes is covered by a piece of metal called the bonnet in the UK and the hood in the USA."<grin>)

Here's the problem: In the USA, a "show" as a noun refers to the entire overall event -- a horse show. A "class" is a specific competition or event within a show. We would say a "halter class." A "halter show" would mean an entire event of nothing but in-hand classes. (Horrors! Wouldn't that be dull!) For example, at a one-day show, there might be many different classses for adults, kids, hunters, jumpers, ponies, horses, including in-hand, under saddle, harness, etc.... Does that make sense? To refer to a single "class" as a "show" in the USA is considered very, very incorrect. "To show" is a verb form meaning to exhibit or present a horse. I sometimes hear people new to the world of showing say, "My horse went in three shows today" when they mean "My horse was shown (verb) in three classes (noun) at the horse show (noun) today." So to Amercan ears, to say "a show" means something different than it apparently means in the UK, I think. (And worse yet, sounds like incorrect usage).

Am I correct that the sequence of the working cob class is that first the horse jumps a round of fences, then they bring all the horses in together (or separately??) for a short workout on the flat, under saddle, no fences, just a walk-trot-canter sort of thing??? Or am I mistaken? Somewhere I read that in the UK the judges will ride the horses at some shows? Is this true? (This is never done in the USA).

So, would it be correct to say "where the horses must jump a series of fences and then are shown on the flat at a walk. trot and canter??"

Also, USA working hunters simply jump their round, then they lead the horses back in, riders dismounted, to check soundness. No flat work. There are separate classes that are flat work only, usually called something like "Hunter under saddle" or "Hunter pleasure." There is also a class called Conformation Hunter where they actually pull saddles and do a short in-hand presentation.

Well, perhaps I am now getting too anal-retentive here. I just want to be sure that if we are using British English that there is an explanation for people in other countries who use different phrasing (and to be fair, the same isn't a bad notion for the American English articles...I loved discovering that what we call "Light" feeds in the USA are called "Pony Nuts" in the UK--a most wonderful term!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanabw (talk • contribs) 04:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Terminology in britain *is* a bit complicated in Britain, because it has just grown up over the years. A "show" refers to the entire day, but is also the walk, trot, canter and gallop that each horse does individually in both flat and working horse classes (sometimes called the "individual show" - as opposed to the "go round" at the beginning when all the horses literally go round in walk, trot and canter together, and in the case of hunters are then galloped four at a time up the long side).

However, at some county level shows and above, rather than the horse's rider performing the individual show, the judge will get on and ride - this is to make sure that the horse is well schooled, well mannered and has comfortable paces. In addition, at county shows and above, and at some riding club (lower level) championships the horses are unsaddled, stood up and trotted up for a conformation judge (usually different to the "ride" judge, who is so called even if they do not actually ride the horses) to asses conformation and free movement.

Still with me?

I do like the phrase you used for the working cob (individual) shows, which I think we could use here.

And as for your comment about a whole day of in-hand shows - that's what I've just come back from this weekend, and while it wasn't as exciting as ridden showing, it wasn't entirely deathly boring - watching a 5ft girl try and hang on to an 18hh hunter with all its four feet in the air always provides a certain amount of entertainment while you're stood in the line-up! Katdib 12:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL! Our USA judges wouldn't dare ride the horses! It might mess up their nice clothes! :-) (I am kidding, I do a little judging of small shows, but if I actually got on a horse, well, it is simply not done here and the owner would scream at you for messing up its training! (grin) At one time they had a test in equitation where riders could be asked to switch horses, Even that has been removed.) IMHO, I suspect that many a horse in the US would be revealed as about half schooled and held together with chewing gum and baling twine! At least, at the lower levels. Too much "hurry up" schooling done over here (JMO...), no standardization of instructor certification or national licensing. Judges are licensed, and most have to prove they know what they are doing, especially for a USEF license, but sometimes "horse politics" plays more of a role than it should.

It's true-- in-hand classes can have their exciting moments, at least in the hunter and action breeds! (You really should watch American Saddlebreds sometime!) However, halter for stock horse breeds is about like watching paint dry, bless 'em. Sometimes we actually refer to the division as "feed 'em and lead 'em." One overweight show horse after another...yawn...don't know if this happens in the UK, but in the USA some "halter" horses are "specialists" and are never ever actually ridden! =:-O Montanabw^(talk) 15:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Ha, yes, judges riding the horses certainly shows up any lack of schooling/ "clever" riding on the jockey's behalf. However, if a judge has reason to believe that a horse is unsafe to ride for any reason, they can decline to ride - the horse will obviously not be in the ribbons if it is ill-mannered anyway.

I can't imagine horses only being used for in hand classes (with the possible exception of brood mares) - it seems such a waste!

I've removed the "no cutting whip" section from the day dress - as far as I can see an American cutting whip is very similar to an English side saddle whip (horn handle, long lash?) and as cobs can be ridden side-saddle these whips could be used.

Still looking for a pic - I can't find one on the internet, and sadly there will be no outdoor shows here until next Spring so I can't take one myself very easily. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Katdib (talk • contribs) 12:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Do NOT get me started on what a TOTAL waste it is to have horses that are "halter specialists" and never ridden! It is my pet peeve and I can easily rant for hours on the topic! But, it's the weird world we live in here in the USA where form matters more than substance! (Arrgh!) Many breeds have this problem, though fewer in the hunter and dressage disciplines, simply because there is not a lot of prestige in it for them. The stock horse breeds and the action breeds are absolutely ruining their genetic base with this garbage, though. Oh, whoops, I started ranting... ! Just read HYPP or Cerebellar abiotrophy to get a flavor for the problem...who cares if a perfectly decent breed of riding horses are turned into freaks that can't even BE ridden if you can sell them as yearlings for a bazillion dollars! Arrgh! Arrgh! Arrgh!

"Cutting whip" is another example of how Yanks and Brits are a people separated by a common language! (As Mark Twain would say) (grin). We don't see riding whips with a "long" lash in the USA at all, other than some classes on the east coast where people who are members of a hunt ride in traditional forms of recognized regalia and carry whips used for the hounds (like these. Usually riding whips here fall into three categories: The dressage or "riding" whip, long stiff shaft, "popper" or the part of the whip beyond the shart of two to four inches, overall length set by rule at around 43 inches, including the lash or popper. They look like this, though some have white handles. A slightly longer variation allowed in Saddle seat classes, and is usually the type used for sidesaddle. Is this what you mean by a "cutting" whip? Hunter under saddle classes don't allow them (sometimes crops are OK), "suitability for Dressage" and show hack classes do.

The second category is the very short hunt crop (implement), with a short, very stiff shaft and short looped leather popper, used in classes over fences. Length is limited to 30 inches. It looks like this. The third is the "bat", seen mostly in horse racing and in rodeo speed events like barrel racing, it has a shaft that is between the crop and the whip in length, with a wide folded leather popper.

I googled "cutting whip" and (not counting all the BDSM sites =:-O ) got this. If this is what you mean, then to American eyes, this would be a short dressage-style whip as far as shaft and popper, but the handle would only be seen on specialized whips, not in regular use (other than maybe the competitions that you occasionally see on the east coast where everyone wears hunt colors and such) Montanabw^(talk) 19:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Loads of people in hunter classes in the UK uses a whip with a long lash - and they cost a fortune! I guess it's because it's a tradition in England, and people get very in to having exactly the right stuff (although it's not compulsory). The picture of the cutting whip that you put up is a sidesaddle whip, and could be used in any side saddle classe (cobs, ladies' hunters, hacks ridden side-saddle, horse de concours etc). In-hand cobs also have special whips - I've made no mention of them in the article because I'm not hugely knowledgeable about them, they seem to be mini versions of the hunter whips (like this [1]). It would probably be better left to someone with a shop over here or something to give advice on these. To be honest, I circumvent all these propblems by using a Wembley whip (see: [2]) for showing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Katdib (talk • contribs) 09:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow! That is a significant difference. You simply do not see the long lash here. The only whips seen in the show ring here have the little poppers on the end, the only whips with a long lash are longeing whips. Ah, this is quite interesting. Incidentally, is there one overall governing body for equestrian sport in the UK, the way we have the USEF, (and the various smaller groups that got mad and left USEF, but still admit it's the granddaddy organization) or are all the different groups sort of each in their own little world? Montanabw^(talk) 22:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Side-saddle riders just about always carry a long whip, and hunting whips with long lashes are increasingly popular - I don't know why 'cause they're fiddly things to carry! I think it's probably just because us Brits are suckers for tradition. The British Horse Society oversees welfare, training, riding schools, most shows etc, but sporting wise there are three main bodies - British Dressage, British Eventing and the British Show Jumping Association. All pony showing is overseen by the BSPS, although there are breed societies too, and horse showing by the respective society (Sport Horse GB, BSHA etc) Katdib 08:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you pop over to horse show and plug that info in there? The UK section is really weak and needs some work! Montanabw^(talk) 16:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)