Jump to content

Talk:Civil war in Poland (1704–1706)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Civil war of 1704-06

[edit]

In order to not confuse readers, I suggest we put together this article with Charles XII invasion of Poland, as these two articles covers the same conflicts, the civil war was directly part of the Polish campaign. Best regards Imonoz (talk) 15:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you are proposing a merge, I disagree. Those are related, but not identical, conflicts. The civil war was a phase - part of - Charles' invasion, just like they were both part of the Great Northern War. Also, the Charles' invasion seems to be more clearly defined in Swedish historiography, less so in English and Polish. Finally (and this is a technical matter), the Charles invasion article lacks any inline references, so merger of this (better-referenced) article into it would merge higher quality content into lower quality one, this lowering the quality of our treatment of the topic. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:02, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the 'Charles XII invasion of Poland' article is lacking quality, it seems from what I can see like a translated version of the Swedish article, which also lacks footnotes. As you said this is a part of the invasion, and here I think it would be better to put it together and expand. There was significant parties fighting before the declaration of war, Swedish troops entered the already ongoing civil war in Lithuania in 1701, crossed the Polish border in 1702 and fought actively against and with Polish-Lithuanian parties until 1704 and since. The same goes for the aftermath of 1706, perhaps even more so, until 1709 and then there's an aftermath of that as well where Augustus secured the throne. My suggestion is simply that instead of making different articles about the civil wars in 1701-1704, 1704-1706, 1706-1709 we should merge them all together. And Charles XII invasion of Poland is of course a very strong if not the factor of these ongoing civil wars.
Don't get me wrong, I think this article is better than Charles XII invasion of Poland and I'm not saying we should necessary throw this text into that one, but perhaps change the name (what would be a more fitting name in Polish literature?) of this article and have information added in here (which we-I-can find references to) and delete the current Charles XII invasion of Poland article. I would be very happy to add information when I find the time to. Also, I see you added "part of: Civil war in Poland (1704-1706)" to the infobox in many of the battles, this is also slightly confusing, since then, Charles XII invasion of Poland should be, or is recommended to be added as well. I think quality before quantity here and I see this article as the perfect opportunity, as we can build and add on a already good structure. Imonoz (talk) 12:44, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I support adding Charles XII invasion to battle infoboxes. The name of this article (civil war) is as used in Polish historiography, through I may be able to tell more when I have access to more Polish sources (around XMAS). I think both articles can stay (just need to be expanded). Neither of which I think is a major issue. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:04, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I still don't understand why we should have two articles to confuse readers, covering about the same conflict (not identical, but really close). But I guess if I asked the author of Charles XII invasion of Poland he would have given me the same answer, I guess it's a direct consequence of independent work. I don't support adding Charles XII invasion of Poland to the infoboxes, actually. As I said, I think having both partof: Civil war in Poland (1704-1706) -> Charles XII invasion of Poland and then Great Northern War all together is confusing having in the infobox (if I were to make an article about a certain campaign in this war it would be even more confusing having 4 articles there), I suggest these two articles to be added in the end of 'see more' and having only Great Northern War at the infobox. Imonoz (talk) 14:42, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CONTENTFORK is a relevant policy for identical topics. But as you obserbe, the topics are not identical. You are welcome to propose a WP:MERGE if you think they should be combined (if you do so, please notify all relevant wikiprojects). I think having 2+ entries in infobox is ok, see Battle of the Bzura for example. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:17, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, okey. I will not bother anymore about that, after all it was just a suggestion, I can't force anyone to anything (just to make sure we understand each other: you want different articles for the Polish Civil war (1701-1704), Polish civil war (1704-1706), Polish civil war (1706-1709 [1719]) if these articles were to be made?). Two entries would work fine, but that would be 3 entries and possible even 4 if certain campaigns are added as well, in my opinion that is too much and even confusing to me. I think it's better we put it as 'see also' in the end. Imonoz (talk) 07:29, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there was a Polish civil war to speak of before 1704 and after 1706 in that particular time frame, so I don't think such articles would ever be created. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:31, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There certainly was, pro-Swedish forces fought against pro-Saxon and helped dethrone Augustus. The Warsaw and Sandomierz confederations fought each other (even perhaps more actively) after 1706 to 1709, see Battle of Koniecpol, there were also battles like Lachowce and Wisniowce taking place in the 1706-1709 civil war. Both these parts of Polish times of struggle is worth to mention as they're direct consequences of Augustus seizing the throne once again, and just as important as the Lithuanian Civil War (1700) taking place within the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth.
So, I will add Civil war in Poland (1704-1706) and Charles XII invasion of Poland to 'See more' on each involved battle. Imonoz (talk) 09:52, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. Pl wiki for the Koniecpol battle classifies it as part of the GNW, not the Polish civil war. Would need to check more reliable Polish sources, but sadly, few are online :( --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:07, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, technically it is part of the Great Northern War since the Polish civil war itself, is part of the Great Northern War (these events affected each other, so they all belong into this major conflict). Imonoz (talk) 10:36, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I am just remarking that pl wiki classifies the 1704-1706 conflicts as part of the Polish civil war (a part of GNW), and post-1706 conflicts as just part of GNW. In other words, it clearly frames the civil war as only lasting those three years, not longer. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:03, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In Polish historiography, there is only civil war (1704-1706), which does not change the fact that the fighting continued even after the Battle of Poltava, for example Battle of Krotoszyn in 1712.
In contrast, before 1704, civil war was only in Lithuania. In 1696 began a small struggle, while the civil war began in 1700, and this year is over, after the Battle of Olkieniki but smaller struggle still ongoing and Sapieha fled to the Swedes. In Poland during this time may be called a civil war only Cossack uprising (Palej uprising) in 1702-1704. To suppress the uprising, sent there most of the forces of the Commonwealth (about 12,000 men). Augustus had considerable opposition in Poland because he wanted to make the absolute monarch in Commonwealth. Officially opposition appear against Augustus in 1704, when formed Warsaw Confederation.
Imonoz, when took place the battle of Wisniowce?Kcdlp (talk) 16:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Kcdlp, the battle of Wisniowce is Podkamien 1709, which we mentioned earlier between Jan Kazimierz Sapieha the Elder and Franz Rüdiger von der Goltz. I have, by the way found a small description of the events if you're interested. Imonoz (talk) 18:21, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is already the third name of this battle, I also met with Nakwasza. I will be very grateful, if you write this description.Kcdlp (talk) 19:07, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll stub Palej Uprising for context shortly. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Civil_war_in_Poland_(1704–1706)&oldid=1206706134"