Talk:Control of cities during the Syrian civil war/Archive 6

This is an archive of past discussions about Control of cities during the Syrian civil war. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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Archive 4

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Aleppo Map

The base 80 is partly recaptured by the army according to neutral sources. However the editors are keeping the area rebel held!!!!! and most importantly they keep the area south towards Aziza contested!!!!!!!--Dimitrish81 (talk) 19:37, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Kurds in Azaz-Jarabulus region

Can anyone actually confirm that there is no Kurdish armed presence at all in that region?

Sources cited thus far: http://xeber24.net/4/1509-2013-07-31-21-22-31.html - does not load

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=505921676166430&id=232830140142253 - is a private rebel facebook page that says next to nothing. Why was it even cited?

http://www.welati.info/nuce.php?id=9331&niviskar=192&cure=3 - I don't know Arabic, but I could not find confirmation using google translate.

This is a radical change that affects over 10 villages predominantly populated by Kurds, someone really needs to look at it impartially. Kami888 (talk) 20:39, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Let me tell you what you don´t know - there was never any YPG in region of Jarabulus, Manbij or al-Bab reef. Never. It was Jabhat al-Akrad which controlled several dozen villages with low numbers and only thanks to fact that they were part of Aleppo Supreme Military Council. In July Jabhat al-Akrad was thrown off SMC after they allied itself with YPG (as they always were but lets leave that for later) after fight in Sere Kaniye and their positions in Jarabulus plains were raided. That is exactly what welati article states and that is exactly what that rebel facebook page says.

Also this is not something new or radical. Its been like that for MONTHS. EllsworthSK (talk) 20:57, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I understand, and everything you say might very well be true, but from the point of view of the map this is a major change because up until recently it showed the situation very differently. Could you try to find a better source please, which actually says everything that you just said here? Preferably an English language mainstream media source rather than an unfinished arabic website with definite opposition sympathies on the front page. I mean, if what you say is true then it shouldn't be difficult at all since 1. it involved the kurds just abandoning so many villages at once and 2. it happened over a month ago so all the mainstream news should have caught up with it by now. Otherwise it still looks very sketchy. Kami888 (talk) 21:05, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don´t have english source given English source ignoration of Kurdish conflict in Syria in general if we exclude recent YPG victories. The only we have is Welati and Xeber24, while Xeber reports in Kurmanji (where even Google Translate won´t help me). Alas those articles are also from August. Only other is Jabhat al-Akrad twitter page [1]. I can give you YPG website in Arabic where it states that its operations are divided into three regions - Efrin, Kobane and Jazira. Also that Jarabulus was declared Emirate under ISIS emir. Additionally their withdrawal from al-Bab and Manbij but you have that above in Xeber article already. Also Xeber is strongly pro-PYD source, not pro-rebel. EllsworthSK (talk) 01:04, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

The Xeber article still doesn't even load though... And it does seem very strange that Jabhat al-Akrad's retreat from about a dozen villages would go completely unnoticed by the media, when they do appear to report on the capture or loss of every little village when the YPG or regime forces are involved, doesn't it? They also reported it in early August when ISIS kicked Jabhat al-Akrad out of Tel Hasel and Tel Aran, currently contested by regime forces, so why would they never say anything about the other villages? Hell, forget mainstream media, I can't even find any confirmation on the rebel-run blogs, which normally keep a close eye on things like this. I'd still suggest leaving things the way they were until a more reliable confirmation emerges. Kami888 (talk) 14:57, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Only reason why few reports went around about Tel Hasel and Aran was alleged massacre that happened there. Media never bothered mentioning that there is something like Jabhat al-Akrad, up to this day there is NOTHING in media about fighting in Efrin, nor was there anything in media about ISIS take-over of Sarrin and villages west of Tall Abyad. Hell, there was nothing in media when in last July PYD took control over those regions in the first place - nada, nothing. Here you have some additional sources - 16.8.2013 117 Kurdish villages in the Aleppo / Bab / Azzaz triangle are under attack by al-Qaeda-linked groups and several brigades of the Free Syrian Army (FSA). [2] The general commander of Jabhat al-Akrad (Kurdish Front) has said 117 Kurdish villages in a triangle in Aleppo Province are under attack by “Al-Qaeda-linked groups”, i.e. the Islamists faction Jabhat al-Nusra and the Islamic State of Iraq and as-Sham, and several brigades of the Free Syrian Army (FSA).Jabhat al-Akrad said it is having to withdraw from the area [3] and also blog of Wladimir van Wilgenburg, regular contributor for al-Monitor and Analyst for Jamestown foundation [4]. The second part of the blog is confirmed by the Welati source. EllsworthSK (talk) 20:32, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Though it's not true about fighting in Efrin region, I've heard lots of media reporting on that - for example [5], I've also heard about Jabhat al-Arkad, though I wasn't aware that they were the only Kurdish autonomist group present in the "Aleppo triangle" region, and to be honest there is still not really any source that says so. Still, it sounds reasonable so I guess I am mostly convinced. Thanks for the sources. Kami888 (talk) 21:56, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I´m not counting al-Monitor van Wilgenburg articles since he isn´t western journalist per se as he is based in Iraqi Kurdistan, speaks fluently Kurdish and Arabic and this is his focus of research. Anyway this region has been thorn in my eye for some time, sources are extremely hard to get without either making yourself a database as times goes on (what I didn´t do) or fluent Arabic/Sorani/Kurmanji. Good to have that behind us. EllsworthSK (talk) 00:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Sopher99 - changes false

Sopher99 your source to revert Hama as contested saying that: 1 rebel killed by clashes in the Tariq Halab neighbourhood of Hama in late April 2013. so it is talking about a very old clash.

And also there isn't any clash in Suveyda. syriaohr facebook is not a reliable source. 78.191.118.45 (talk) 23:50, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok some one revert changes done by sopher99 and ban him for god's sake he is changing the map all the time and all the time his sources are unreliable or he is trying to use a car bomb to mark places contested and the article about Hama he posted was 5 days ago don't you think that more reliable sources like Reuters or even Al-Jazeera would have reported clashes in Syria's third city please change it.79.126.212.24 (talk) 11:45, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Ghabaghib

This town south of Damascus has been listed as contested for a long time. But quite a while ago the Syrian army took full control as far as I know.

This map also lists it as army controlled: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Military_situation_in_Damascus_region_as_of_15th_of_September_2013.png — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.161.206.160 (talk) 19:30, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Done Ariskar (talk) 05:13, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Kurdish village east of Allepo

Village dissapeared from map - kurd controlled village between Aleppo and Kweirs airbase is missing now from map. At moment this is area of clashes. Why is this village removed from map?Kostadin24 (talk) 12:03, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Because it was controlled by Jabhat al-Akrad before FSA turned on them in August. Kurdish forces as such have been gone for months now. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:54, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but why village is removed? This area is contested now and every sign of control is important.Kostadin24 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Adra

Someone revert changes made by Sopher99 the article is old and there are no reports of rebel presence in Adra only in the Adra industrial areaDaki122 (talk) 21:52, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Article is less than a month old. Sopher99 (talk) 22:38, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Sopher99 your source is old and not giving any details of the clashes.78.191.118.45 (talk) 23:03, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The article less than a month old and tells when and where they happened, and between who. Sopher99 (talk) 23:05, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

For this month many front lines moved in Damascus region! One month is long period. Kostadin24 (talk) 08:00, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Last news for Adra/14hours old/ - Mortars shell Adra. This doesn't make area contested. In fact Damascus central areas are shelled every day. This doesn't make them contested.Kostadin24 (talk) 08:04, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Damascus Countryside

The towns of Al-Ruhaybah and Nasaryia must be reverted back to government held as there are no reports that there are any clashes in those towns.The only clashes erupted only when rebels attacked nearby storage bases.The towns should be put back to government control.Other thing is the siege of the base of Brigade 81 must be removed there are also no fights or any raids on the base in months.Only attack happened when the FSA skirmished on the outskirts of the Base there has been no fighting going on in that area.Daki122 (talk) 15:51, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

No because the battle lasted for a over a week and there are no sources saying the government controls those towns. Theres been no fighting in that area because rebels control them uncontested. Sopher99 (talk) 16:14, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Sopher99 Go and s*** your self you f*** a*****.Go and join the Al-Nusra and ISIS fan club you retard.Who the f*** asked for something about it your the most hated person on this site because everyone is trying to fix stupid things that you make.You are adding towns that are rebel controlled in Raqa and you think if you add enough of them it will seem like the rebels control more towns,well you can keep on trying to make your illusion that the rebels are winning but let me tell you nobody else is buying that s***.And of course the Alepo map that you had to revert the changes made by others around the hour posting sources that date back to 2011 (Base 80, Neyrab,Aziza). And for "Rebels control them uncontested" what the hell are you talking about last report about a clash with government troops there was when Al-Nusra took Maaloula after the army took it back the rebels fled because the army cut off there supply route and second of only report that came about clashes in the area was from AJ live blog which is not as reliable as there main website because every "activist" can write there. SOHR hasn't reported fights there for months and if it didn't report them then it is for sure back in government hands.Daki122 (talk) 17:47, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Rebels control 60% of territory and 40% of the population - yet there are 386 red dots and 244 lime dots. Around half of all dots are supposed to be lime if we want to be accurate. And while I am okay with Al nusra I am actually opposed to ISIS, who have killed many FSA leaders and arrested many activists. Regarding the Damascene towns I have said my piece. Rebels control them as they took over the villages and thus fighting subsided. Sopher99 (talk) 21:47, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

And your source for those towns being rebel-held? Speculating that the fighting subsided because the rebels took them is an unsourced POV which Wikipedia does not acknowledge. Unsourced speculation as a whole is not acknowledged. In any case, stick with the sources on hand guys. EkoGraf (talk) 22:13, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Deir ez-Zor and Raqqa province

Then someone noticed that in general, that are not members adds villages and towns are not using the correct sources and broken links, and sometimes do not exist.: http://www.hhassan.com/2013/03/foreign-fighters-in-syria-targeted-by.html%20http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=35.598973&lon=39. http://m.asharq-e.com/content/1363621814277267900/Published%20-%20Features Also, this source can not be used to change because it map without cities and villages. And who wants to and can treat it.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22798391 I know that my message is deleted but can still someone to read it.37.55.208.227 (talk) 05:58, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

tall hassel

tall hassel is under siryan army control — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.145.142.225 (talk) 18:59, 12 November 2013 (UTC) Reports say the army recaptured the town http://documents.sy/news.php?id=9236&lang=en It would be of no suprise as it is located near Tall Aran (in fact only a couple of hundred meters are separating the towns)Daki122 (talk) 19:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I wouldnt consider that as a true source just FYI.Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.42.11 (talk) 21:19, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

The town must be put as contested the Army has entered it according to SOHR and AFP http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jgjqXCmuwr4UFF4iJS4h653Nu7ig?docId=32cb00c4-4218-4b94-88e2-b3d86e0a4231

Daki122 (talk) 17:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Neutral sources are confirming an advance of the army inside Tal Hassel. Village must change in contested status and not only surrounded.--Dimitrish81 (talk) 18:25, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Even Alarabiya is confirming that Regime is advancing in Tal Hassel.http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/11/14/Syrian-forces-make-gains-in-Damascus-advance-in-Aleppo-.html Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.40.181 (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Allegedly Tal Hasel has fallen to pro-government forces https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=594901093879010&id=298382103530912 Rob2013 (talk)75.34.40.181 (talk) 10:53, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Rami Abdelrahman of the British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said clashes were continuing in the southern outskirts of Tel Hasel on Friday evening.But fighters from the al Qaeda-linked Nusra Front and the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant had already withdrawn north towards Aleppo, now divided between Assad's forces and rebels.Al Akhbar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roma-borisov (talk • contribs) 14:55, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Qalamoun offensive

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a UK-based monitoring group that uses a network of pro- and anti-Assad sources, said the fighting in Qara and the nearby town of Nabek was "a sign that the operation in Qalamoun has started.Reuters Roma-borisov (talk) 16:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Sopher99 syriaohr facebook is not realiable

Sopher99 syriaohr facebook page is not reliable. because it is pro opposition. and if you get it as refference it says there is clashes in raqqah, tal abyad, al tabqa: https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/450137751761235 also it says there is clashes in saraqeb and maarat numan 78.191.118.45 (talk) 17:12, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

also your source for tal hasel says town is full control of Syrian Army.78.191.118.45 (talk) 17:38, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Rami Abdelrahman of the British-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said clashes were continuing in the southern outskirts of Tel Hasel on Friday evening.But fighters from the al Qaeda-linked Nusra Front and the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant had already withdrawn north towards Aleppo, now divided between Assad's forces and rebels.Reuters Roma-borisov (talk) 17:47, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Facebook is not a reliable source and should not be used.Roma-borisov (talk) 17:50, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Tall Hasell needs to be reverted reuters confirmed that the town was taken stop making stupid changes Sopher99 SOHR said the fighting was going on near a rebel position near the town of Tall Hasell and that the Army also secured the Highway Between Al-Safira and Alepo

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/15/us-syria-crisis-aleppo-idUSBRE9AE11X20131115

Daki122 (talk) 18:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Madaya

This town is misplaced. It should be closer to Zabadani, not next to the Lebanon border. http://wikimapia.org/#lang=es&lat=33.692352&lon=36.099014&z=13&m=b --95.22.101.102 (talk) 19:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

You're right. I think whoever added it must have been using OpenStreetMap or some other poor-quality, non-satellite map. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:06, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Done Tradedia^talk

SANAMAYN

Please give sources notifying that this town is under rebel hands. Nothing reliable as far as I know. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.29.220 (talk) 19:12, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Sopher99 your source only shows a building, so it is not a reliable source or a source..78.191.118.45 (talk) 19:37, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Who is playing ?. If green, give your reliable sources !!. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.29.220 (talk) 22:29, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Hey lothar where is the source for sanamayn? why do you convert it to lime? there isnt any reliable source to say it is under rebel control!! 78.191.118.45 (talk) 22:48, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Fixed it and posted reliable source. Daki122 (talk) 00:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

It has regrouped and consolidated its presence in towns such as Sanameen, Nawa, Izraa and Deraa city itself, which remain firmly in army control.Reuters Roma-borisov (talk) 11:20, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Harasta

Harasta is mostly in government hands but rebels have been trying since summer 2012 to advance into it.Reuters Roma-borisov (talk) 08:59, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I am thinking this should maybe warrant Harasta being marked as government-held but with a rebel ring around it? EkoGraf (talk) 14:15, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Most of news agencies publish story about explosion in Harasta. Explosion killed about 75 soldiers in military building. This should confirm SAA presence in city. And green circle arround city.Kostadin24 (talk) 14:30, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Wrong guys. Here is the lcoation of the base http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.549049&lon=36.374413&z=16&m=b&search=harasta%20syria Sopher99 (talk) 15:04, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

http://m.gulfnews.com/news/region/syria/fighting-rages-in-qusary-and-damascus-1.1189206

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/27/syria-chemical-attack-damascus_n_3342023.html

http://jordantimes.com/article/slim-hope-of-truce-as-fighting-rages-on-syria-battlefields < from just today

"rebel controlled town of Harasta " If anything we should change it to green. Sopher99 (talk) 15:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

These sources are more reliable: Harasta is mostly in government hands but rebels have been trying since summer 2012 to advance into it. Reuters NBS News Globalpost Roma-borisov (talk) 15:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Your sources are out-dated Sopher, from half a year ago. The ones about it being mostly government-held are from yesterday. EkoGraf (talk) 16:04, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The information in this source for October 22, 2012: The Jordan Times and here's proof:Daily News Egypt Roma-borisov (talk) 16:23, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

South Damascus

Can a experienced editor try to rearrange the towns in the South Damascus Region to a more realistic picture? Its really out of shape, and I for myself am not experienced enough to do this. OberschIesien90 (talk) 17:21, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I volunteer to do this (and all of the province while we are at it...) Tradedia^talk 06:00, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Can we arranged a couple of Brigades also? Brigade 65 should replace where Brigade 67 is. Brigade 67 is just north to the Saidnaya Prison.http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.698208&lon=36.432037&z=13&m=b&gz=0;363374519;336870675;0;0;997352;238502&show=/26274626/Army-Base-HQ&search=Damascus%20Syria Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.28.127 (talk) 08:48, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Done! Roma-borisov (talk) 18:36, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

al-Dwayrineh, Aleppo

I noticed being posted on the map but the location is wrong; it is directly east of Aleppo International Airport and just North West of Tal Hasel. Here is the location: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=36.188044&lon=37.281761&z=14&m=b&search=Aleppo%20 Also, if somebody wants to be specific the Jibreen District is also under Government control. It is located west of Al Dwayrineh: http://www.syriatimes.sy/index.php/news/local/9371-jibreen-village-march-in-support-of-the-syrian-army http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13920822000300 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.40.60 (talk) 2:16 pm, 19 November 2013, Tuesday (1 month, 25 days ago) (UTC−8)

Fars News not a reliable source.Roma-borisov (talk) 06:49, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Duly noted but this is the best I could find. http://sana.sy/eng/21/2013/11/12/512209.htm Rob2013 (talk)

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/11/19/335564/syrian-army-makes-more-gains-in-aleppo/

Press TV also has video footage and it is reliable.

And here is another one :).

http://www.trust.org/item/20131119145959-vur9p/?source=search — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daki122 (talk • contribs) 11:33, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Talbiseh, Homs

Just read that Syrian troops are clashing with rebels on the outskirts of this town, not sure if you want to put this town as besieged. http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2013/11/15/syria-progress-posts-51-minutes-ago-homs-syria/ Rob2013 (talk)

Blogs (and less partisan blogs) are not reliable sources.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 22:55, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

References disappeared

The reference list for information about each city has disappeared. Can anyone fix this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.74.13.43 (talk) 20:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Yep, I cant understand what happened with the reflist. Please someone do something to fix that problem.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 17:30, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

It is a space problem, that prevents it from displaying. To be fixed soon. André437 (talk) 05:33, 16 November 2013 (UTC) For more details about this issue, see Talk:Cities and towns during the Syrian civil war#”Detailed map” too large to be transcluded into “cities article”

Done Tradedia^talk 12:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Qara, Rif Dimashq

Fierce fighting around the surrounding areas and government shelling.^[1] Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.40.181 (talk) 11:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Fighting erupted around the town of Qara in Syria’s mountainous Qalamoun region near Lebanon’s border.NOW Roma-borisov (talk) 20:16, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

More reporst from Qarah, http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/syria-progress-posts-about-a-minute-ago-qalamoun/ http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2013/11/16/syria-progress-posts-13-minutes-ago-damascussuburbs-syria/ Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.42.169 (talk) 08:35, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The source is not reliable need confirmation from other sources.Roma-borisov (talk) 09:12, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

UN Refugee Agency: Hearing reports of 800 families arriving in Arsal after violent clashes in Qarah.Al Jazeera Roma-borisov (talk) 12:50, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Syria's state TV is reporting that troops have captured a town near the Lebanon border, days after launching a wide offensive to regain the mountainous region.The Daily Star Reuters NOW Xinhua Roma-borisov (talk) 12:04, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Please mark Qara (near Lebanon border, north of Damascus) as government control. This is confirmed by BBC and other mainstream Western media - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25006486 This was apparently a key smuggling route for the militants. -Helvetica (talk) 21:39, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Done Tradedia^talk 12:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Rastan & Talbiseh

According to this 20 November 2013 RT report, both towns were retaken by SAA following days of heavy fighting.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 23:32, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Both towns are constantly bombarded by Syrian Air Force & Army artillery but I vert much doubt they've seized both towns.Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.46.86 (talk) 07:18, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Pro government media says about destroying boats with weapons in lake, but not mentioned - capturing Rastan.Kostadin24 (talk) 09:59, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

I dont give my personal opinion, I simply give a journalistic source stating that. Ahmadac had reverted my edit claiming RT is not a reliable source, but unless he had proof about it or a consensus on it (as RT is used as a reliable source in dozens if not hundreds of WP articles), I will restore my edit.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 16:21, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Comment: As Im not a POV-pusher as other notorious users (more correct call them vandals, if you look this page frequently you know what Im talking about), I will only put both towns as besieged, as this sources confirm: Syria War Turns to Homs (June 2013), Syrian forces pound rebel bastion of Rastan (May 2012), Battle for Syrian town of Rastan continues despite ceasefire (May 2012).--HCPUNXKID (talk) 19:18, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree for this part the towns are besieged as the army controls most of the countryside of the both towns that's why you don't see rebels attacking any nearby villages Daki122 (talk) 20:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Removal of Syrian civil war map

I can understand the reasons for deleting it from the Cities and towns during the Syrian civil war article, but the link is not enough, a schematic general map of Syria must be included to have a first and general vision of the military situation. Perhaps a map showing only territorial divisions (SAA and allies-held, FSA and allies-held, YPG and allies-held, and contested areas) without cities, towns, military bases or other infrastructures.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 18:38, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Agree. EkoGraf (talk) 00:25, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Deir Salman and Al-Abbade

Deir Salman and Al-Abbade under the full control of the army! This source of opposition and is based on reports from twitter and can not be used for editing.Yalla Souriya 37.53.0.59 (talk) 18:38, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Yallasouriya is totally unreliable and also pro opposition, it only getting news from twitter and dont have any other source.78.191.177.106 (talk) 02:27, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Babbila

Babbila under the full control of the army! Sopher99 if you do not know to use the Fars News for editing Wikipedia is prohibited, as it is recognized is not a reliable source. You may not know you all sooner or which source to use, the main thing that it was profitable to you. Fars News 37.53.0.59 (talk) 18:43, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Why Babbila is marked as disputed, since she was 17 November under full control of the army.Eastday Xinhua China New Europe The Cairo Post 37.55.38.237 (talk) 17:34, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Deir Salman and Abbadeh under the full control of the army!

Where in the news referred to the capture of these cities, it says about the fighting near the town of Oteiba. Alhanuty does not have to interpret the news as you feel like.Reuters 37.55.38.237 (talk) 18:44, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Fixed it and im getting tiered of this pro-opp supporters and cheerleaders always changing towns with no sources they must be pissed off with the Army advances but the hell even if they change it here does not make it better on the ground for the rebels i realy don't know why they think it will change anything on the ground even Al-Jazeera has given up on propaganda http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_2kiUAFAqs&list=UUNye-wNBqNL5ZzHSJj3l8Bg just watch this and all will be cleared -_-.Daki122 (talk) 19:35, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Rebel are trying to retake Oteiba/Otayhbah

[6] Esn (talk) 10:01, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Rebels are trying to retake the town of Oteiba in order to break a heavy blockade on the opposition-held suburbs in the east that ring the capital.Reuters Fierce clashes between regime troops and rebels near an opposition stronghold east of Syria's capital Damascus has killed more than 70 combatants, a monitoring group reported on Sunday. Saturday's fighting in the Eastern Ghouta region killed 28 jihadists of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) and the Al-Nusra Front, 26 fighters from the Free Syrian Army, and 18 soldiers, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.The Daily Star 37.52.27.151 (talk) 10:16, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

The sources don't report fighting inside the town of Oteiba nor does the latest report from Reuters report that. It says that rebels attacked string of checkpoints outside towns in Eastern Ghouta and that at least a 100 rebels and 60 government soldiers were killed in clashes also to point out that Otaiba is a transit point in Ghuta so rebels might be trying to cross out or in to Ghuta.Also to point out that fighting near a town does not make the town contested as there is a lot of fighting going around Nawa,Ariha,Marat al Numan and others but that does not make them contested because there is no fighting inside the towns.

Ottayba is red and no source could say anything else. Even Reuters give the only one reference on it : Abdel Rahmane Al Tizi !. Stop playing with this Map as, for few weeks, it tried to be Honest !. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.39.253 (talk) 15:12, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/24/us-syria-crisis-damascus-siege-idUSBRE9AN09420131124 Daki122 (talk) 14:25, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Cherubim Monastery

Syrian opposition claims: Army turned monastery into base [7] The Daily Star — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.52.27.151 (talk) 21:07, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

And? What does that allegation had to do with this article?. I could bring you dozens of articles about destruction of churches and monasteries by "rebels", if you want...--HCPUNXKID (talk) 22:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

YABROUD

There is now fighting inside this town for days between rebels and SAA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.39.253 (talk) 19:38, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

You have not given any source if you can provide any reliable source please do so and we can then change the mapDaki122 (talk) 20:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Sources about clashes in Yabrud (in Spanish): Siria: 160 muertos en dos días de combates (EFE, 24 Nov.): "El martes pasado el ejército se apoderó de Qara y la batalla continúa en las localidades de Yabrud y Deir Attiya.", Rebeldes atacan a soldados en zona en poder de Al Assad (El Universal, 21 Nov.): "Fuerzas sirias recapturaron Qara y luchan por Yabrud.". So I've changed it to contested.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 23:08, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Sheikh Najjar

Meanwhile, Syria's state-run news agency said the Syrian army carried out "intensive, successful qualitative operations" against armed rebels in the northern province of Aleppo, eliminating several groups with all of their weapons and equipments. The operations took place at Kastello, Sheikh Najjar, west of Khan al-Asal town, al-Bab, and east of al-Nairab area among others, the report said.Global Times Phil Star Xinhua eastday Eastday wikimapia 37.52.27.151 (talk) 10:52, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Government forces started a push into the Sheikh Najjar industrial zone in the northeastern part of Aleppo.Al Monitor 37.55.208.23 (talk) 06:29, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

HAMA CITY

Since we are suddenly going to use Spanish sources per the Yabroud section just 2 sections above, I thought it would be nice to see what they have to say about other cities.

http://espanol.cri.cn/1161/2013/08/30/1s288247.htm

http://www.eitb.com/es/noticias/internacional/detalle/1689946/siria-guerra--explota-camion-bomba-ciudad-hama/

http://noticias.es.msn.com/mundo/brahimi-exige-una-presencia-%C2%ABcre%C3%ADble%C2%BB-de-la-oposici%C3%B3n-siria-en-ginebra

Sopher99 (talk) 23:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

And this one's in Catalan http://www.elperiodico.cat/ca/noticias/internacional/cotxe-explosius-morts-2767280 Sopher99 (talk) 23:40, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

As usual, you are using outdated sources (from August 2013) or manipulating its content (a car bomb -as other users had tried to explain you several times- doesnt mean a town is contested, if so, lets put as contested all the towns bombed by the SAF, OK? I'm sure you wouldnt agree...). And, where is the problem using non-english sources? There are for example, sources in French and no one had protested against its inclusion.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 16:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Khanasser, Aleppo

Why is Khanasser contested? what is the sourcce for this?Rob2013 (talk)--99.141.21.55 (talk) 02:00, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Khanasser not contested! Since the source is clearly stated:In Aleppo, the fighting focused around Khanasser, in the southeast of the province, while clashes in Damascus continued around Marj, east of the capital, Abdul Rahman said.Gulfnews Sopher99 correct its inaccuracy. Since you have mistakenly changed it to the challenged.37.55.208.23 (talk) 06:17, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Reverted. Sopher99 is repeatedly vandalising this template. I wonder why he is not banned yet.Ariskar (talk) 13:41, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

It seems he had some administrators friends. Theres no other explanation, other user would have been banned long time ago...--HCPUNXKID (talk) 16:19, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Baharieh and Qasimieh

The Syrian troops repelled the rebels' attack against military positions and checkpoints at the towns of Baharieh, Qasimieh, and Qaria al-Shamieh area in the Eastern al-Ghouta Suburb.Xinhua China Daily Global Times News Track India 37.55.208.23 (talk) 06:30, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Where are the proper sources? State tv claims? If this goes on too much further it will be time to reconsider what sources I am going to use... Sopher99 (talk) 18:25, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

The map

Does nobody give a bother about the fact that user Alhanuty managed ONCE AGAIN to break the map? I request that the map should be repaired. OberschIesien90 (talk) 20:16, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Deir Al Atya and Nawaa and base 80

Please don't be so prompt to put Deir Al Atya green as it is still contest at this time !!. I wondering why Nawa is red from several days as I didn't see anything about this. Do you have some sources about that ?. Thanks.

It seems too that there is fighting around base 80 from yesterday in Aleppo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.39.253 (talk) 14:52, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Nawa is under Army control (Reuters). While Deir Al Atya should be contested but go figure out why Lothar thinks it is Rebel held And for Base 80 as you said fighting is going on around it not in it and that fighting is mostly concentrated to the north near Naqqarin.Daki122 (talk) 17:08, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Daki122 and thanks to Lothar to change Deir Atya green to minimum contest (many proof on that). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.39.253 (talk) 17:46, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Deir Atiyah changed to besieged, per Syrian troops kill over 100 rebels in siege battle Business Ghana, 25 Nov., 10 medical staffers killed in Syria Business Standard, 26 Nov.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 23:22, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

abbadah, QAYSA and deir salman

These cities are under the total control of the army since not one reliable source is not specified. And that source which is used to change the 100% opposition and is based mainly on rollers from YouTube:http://eaworldview.com/2013/11/syria-forecast-battles-east-ghouta-near-damascus/#ghouta (This shit is not a reliable source!) If so change that soon will change based on messages from Twitter.37.55.208.23 (talk) 06:39, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Dont say that about Twitter so loud, some users would be delighted of breaking WP rules using activist social media instead of journalistic sources...--HCPUNXKID (talk) 16:44, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Rebels took QAYSA AND DEIR SALMAN. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/25/209706/hezbollah-takes-casualties-in.html Sopher99 (talk) 14:10, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Per one unknown anonymous rebel activist. Dubious. I would hold of until a secondary confirmation is abtained. Even SOHR has so far not confirmed the alleged capture. For now it should be contested as Lothar put it, but if secondary confirmation is not obtained by the time the offensive ends it should be reverted back to Army-held. EkoGraf (talk) 08:46, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Yalda

According to users Sopher99 & Lothar von Richtofen, shelling or bombing a town is sufficient to change its status, so I guess other users are allowed to change to red or contested every single town bombed or shelled by the Syrian Armed Forces. Thats what their "logic" states, so...--HCPUNXKID (talk) 00:13, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

HA so true. just out of theory; if contributors decided to have a "Under Airstrike/Artillery strike" symbol EVERY city & town from Aleppo to Dara'a would be filled with said symbols. Rob2013 (talk)99.140.255.64 (talk) 13:14, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Completely agree with that comment !. This MAP begin to be a big "nothing" !. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.220.156.2 (talk) 10:58, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

While we´re on the subject of map, what happened to it? I don´t see it. EllsworthSK (talk) 12:49, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

It's there just hidden, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_and_towns_during_the_Syrian_civil_war#Current it's under "current". Rob2013 (talk) 99.140.255.64 (talk) 13:04, 27 November 2013 (UT

June 2012 map

As I said before, I can understand (but do not agree with) the removal of the current military situation map on this article (although maintaining a link). But, no offence, what is ridiculous is to maintain a June 2012 situation partial map while deleting the current (November 2013) national situation one. I could understand maintaining it on the History of cities and towns during the Syrian civil war, but that map has no place here now, I repeat, in late November 2013.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 23:06, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Sayyida zaynap, nawa, adra are not contested

sopher99 your source for sayyida zaynab is old, syrian army cleared south of damascus in last weeks. for nawa, your source is youtube based and youtube is not a reliable source. for adra, your source not giving any details, so it maybe mean in adra industrial area and it is also contested. also there isnt any source for adra contested..78.191.81.2 (talk) 03:31, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I know a lot of sources are misusing sources now just read this article:

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2013/Nov-28/239185-battles-rage-around-damascus-jihadists-slay-rival-rebel-leader.ashx#axzz2ln9iUe3A

Several pro-opposition websites reported that the Damascus suburb of Otaiba was seized by rebel groups, earning rebukes from activist networks.

“The news is completely false,” said a media activist group in the Ghouta suburbs. “The areas of Marj and Eastern Ghouta are still surrounded by Assad troops and their mercenaries. We ask the media and coordination committees to stop playing fast and loose with the blood of the fighters in order to get a scoop.”

Even there own activist are saying that the info given from the rebels is false how do they expect people now to bilive everything they say.Plus for Adra information may have been manipulated because it does not match SOHR report of the town i mean they are pro-opp and they are not even reporting fighting in Adra.This is there last report and they only say mortar rounds from rebels struck the town nothing else.

Reef Dimashq: 2 mortar shells fell near the entrance of the police residential area in the A'dra town which led to the death of 1 child, the injury of at least 4 and material losses. Daki122 (talk) 10:56, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Deir Atiah

Breaking News Network correspondent confirmed that Syrian Arab Army has seized control of Deir Atiah town in Damascus countryside after it implemented a series of large-scale operations during the last two days in which it managed to kill dozens of gunmen, including Arab and foreign militants.Bbreaking News Islamic Invitation Turkeybut it is pro government source and is not a reliable source and can not be used for editing, still need confirmation of this information from reliable sources.94.178.211.149 (talk) 10:46, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I have seen this news there will probably be a report any way here is the video that SANA aired from the middle of the town

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJfeI2NNt98

You can go on google maps and can see for your self that this is the town of Deir Atiah (you can recognize the town square )

Daki122 (talk) 10:56, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Here is also The Daily Star report

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2013/Nov-28/239226-syria-army-retakes-deir-attiyeh-town-near-damascus-tv.ashx#axzz2lw9JjOka

Daki122 (talk) 11:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Syria's army recaptured Deir Attiyeh on Thursday, state television said, six days after rebel fighters seized the town on the strategic highway between Damascus and the central city of Homs.The Daily Star Yahoo News NOW France Press 94.178.211.149 (talk) 11:14, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Beit Saham

In the city of truce between the army and opposition fighters.Al Akhbar The Arab American News 94.178.211.149 (talk) 11:39, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Oteiba

Oteiba under the control of the army! No reports of fighting in the city.

Several pro-opposition websites reported that the Damascus suburb of Otaiba was seized by rebel groups, earning rebukes from activist networks.

“The news is completely false,” said a media activist group in the Ghouta suburbs. “The areas of Marj and Eastern Ghouta are still surrounded by Assad troops and their mercenaries. We ask the media and coordination committees to stop playing fast and loose with the blood of the fighters in order to get a scoop.”The Daily Star 94.178.211.149 (talk) 13:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Qarah

Qarah under the control of the army. And what a crappy and is not a reliable source used to change Qarah controlled by the opposition. Syrian Observer it's not even SOHR and what it is not clear based on the data source and the opposition is not confirmed not one reliable source. This is ridiculous even on SOHR is not confirmed.94.178.211.149 (talk) 13:32, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Eastern Ghouta Rebel "Offensive"

This is the latest I could find on the situation. http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jc1r4SVpeSM1NQBz_Qyj3VE1vzDA?docId=7c36c883-3c7e-4e12-bedd-f838c81411c3 Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.21.55 (talk) 20:58, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Rob 2013 : Did you change the MAP ?. At this time, it was notified both by rebels and SAA that east Ghouta offensive was a rebel defeat !. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.39.253 (talk) 22:24, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Nope, I dont have the knowledge on how to "edit" the map & what source do you have that rebels & government claim that the counter offensive has failed? with the exception of the link I posted below? Also I noticed somebody changed Otaybah into contested.Rob2013 (talk)--99.141.21.55 (talk) 03:18, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so what I haved gathered for eastern ghouta is this, rebels allegedly taken 7 villages but 3 were retaken by pro-government forces http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jc1r4SVpeSM1NQBz_Qyj3VE1vzDA?docId=7c36c883-3c7e-4e12-bedd-f838c81411c3 Right now there is a opposition blackout on the offensive; although the rebels managed to capture the towns of Deir Salman, Al-Qisa, & Bahariyah http://www.kentucky.com/2013/11/25/2953643/hezbollah-takes-casualties-in.html & this link says it the Rebel offensive has failed but I will wait for more info.Rob2013 (talk)--99.141.21.55 (talk) 01:59, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

What's happen on this MAP ?. Everybody could change it like he/she wants ?. Please read any sources (OSDH, rebel sites, pro gouvernement sites..........). All said the same thing : Rebel offensive in east Ghouta failed !. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.220.156.2 (talk) 10:43, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Nope rebel offensive succeeded. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/25/209706/hezbollah-takes-casualties-in.html Sopher99 (talk) 14:07, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Yep, they succeeded...according to themselves, as it can be read on the article. So ridiculous trying to distort the sources...--HCPUNXKID (talk) 16:33, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

And who says they failed I wonder? Sopher99 (talk) 18:26, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

The siege has not failed nore it has succeeded, in order for them to complete the siege even under constant artillery & aerial shelling they need to take otaybah which they haven't.Rob2013 (talk)--99.140.255.64 (talk) 01:30, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Comment: There are many sources (just search in Google "Eastern Ghouta siege") that state that Eastern Ghouta region is under siege or besieged. According to that reliable sources, I could put as besieged all the "rebel"-held towns of that area (Mesraba, Al-Shifuniya, Autaya, al-Nashabiya, Saqba, Kafr Batna, Zabdin, Jisrin & al-Maliha). Im not gonna do it yet only as a gesture of good faith, hoping that some other users take note of this and stop POV-pushing, vandalism, misinterpretation of sources and other attitudes that had no place here. This is an offer, and like all offers is time-limited. If I dont see a change in the behaviour of that users, I would feel free to make that changes and put all that towns collectively as besieged. Do I have to remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not simply a web, a blog or a forum?. Regards,--HCPUNXKID (talk) 22:51, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Al Dumayr(Rif Dimashq) Contested?

What is the source for this? Rob2013 (talk)--75.34.42.44 (talk) 06:19, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

MESRABA

Can anyone explain what's going on with that town? Someone moved it from Ghouta to Turkey, I suppose by accident. I corrected that, but now a different person did it again. WTF? Kami888 (talk) 00:28, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Rabia, Syria

The small town of Rabia (also the centre of the sub-district of the same name) at the northern part of Latakia Governorate near the border with Turkey, is major centre for the Turkmen militants of the FSA. I guess the town should be mentioned on the map. It is currently controlled by the opposition groups and along with the surrounding forests considered an important passage for weapon smuggling from Turkey to the armed groups.^[2]--Zyzzzzzy (talk) 11:45, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Request: Add 2 Syrian Army Bases

I've come to the attention that there are two more bases just south of Al Qutayfah, Rif Dimashq; one of them is the "Artillery Base" which is a pretty big base and the other one is the "Army Brigade Base" which I think is Brigade 14 according to "Yalla Souriya" http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2013/11/29/syria-missiles-didnt-stop-on-bakha-farms-close/ which I know it is not a credible source but still it should be taken note & added on the map. Here are the coordinates showing both bases just south of Al Qutayfah http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.718843&lon=36.595888&z=14&m=b&show=/23181653/Army-Brigade-Base&search=Damascus%20Syria Rob2013 (talk)99.140.252.69 (talk) 05:14, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

If we have to add all the alleged SAA bases in Wikimapia, there will be dozens missing in the map...--HCPUNXKID (talk) 23:32, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I only asked if those two bases could be added because they do have a role in the war.Rob2013 (talk)--75.34.42.44 (talk) 05:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

And I only give my opinion. I can do it, isnt it?--HCPUNXKID (talk) 17:50, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Of course you can, where did I say you couldn't give your opinion? read the sentence carefully or dont reply at all if you can't understand.Rob2013 (talk)--75.34.34.120 (talk) 01:45, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Only a suggestion:Relax yourself.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 17:18, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Mine was too & I am relaxed.Rob2013 (talk)--99.141.23.162 (talk) 01:43, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Mahin(Homs) Recaptured by Army?

Allegedly Mahin was recaptured by pro-government forces. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=594706123898507&id=298382103530912 & video report http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b39_1384504118 Rob2013 (talk)

Facebook and pro-regime media are not reliable sources. Sopher99 (talk) 15:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

How about SOHR is that good enough for you Sopher https://www.facebook.com/syriaohr/posts/449673305141013 Daki122 (talk) 18:23, 15 November 2013 (UTC) Sopher99 constantly refuses to accept REALITY You are just losing your time by trying to talk to him... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.65.128.25 (talk) 19:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

If we are going to start using sohr facebook pages, get ready for a whole lot of regime areas to go contested. Sopher99 (talk) 20:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Facebook are not a reliable source.Roma-borisov (talk) 20:14, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Facebook posts by individual persons are not reliable, but official posts by SOHR which we use daily via other sources is considered reliable. If you really feel strong about it that the source should not be Facebook than here this sources (non-Facebook) should be enough than [8].EkoGraf (talk) 20:31, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Facebook is not a reliable source and should not be used. And there should be no exceptions.Roma-borisov (talk) 20:47, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to disillusion you, but facebook is a media, not a source. And SOHR *is* a reliable source. It is used by virtually all other sources considered reliable.

(The arabic version of SOHR is not on facebook, the english version is.)

Note that SANA, the media organ of a party to the conflict, and thus a primary source, cannot be a reliable source under wikipedia policy, whereas SOHR uses multiple local sources, and is not a party to the conflict. André437 (talk) 05:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The troops recaptured the towns of Muhin and Hawariyen in the eastern countryside of Homs city. Here reliable sources: The Siasat Daily Xinhua Roma-borisov (talk) 21:10, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Both are exactly the same report published in different media. They are based on SANA, thus are *not reliable*, according to wikipedia policy. However SOHR, a reliable source, makes the same claims André437 (talk) 05:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

...SOHR,a reliable source... FFS, do you really believe what you wrote? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.225.171 (talk) 12:24, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

If SOHR is good enough for almost all mainstream media (Reuters, BBC, NYT, etc), which apparently we accept, it should be good enough for us as well.

The fact that is is published on facebook is totally irrelavant. What matters is the source, not the media used by the source. André437 (talk) 08:58, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Comment: FACEBOOK CANNOT BE USED AS A SOURCE in the vast majority of cases, no matter wich Facebook account is. I will start soon to remove most of Facebook pages used incorrectly as sources in Syrian civil war-related pages. See WP:FACEBOOK for more info about that.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 17:35, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

It is true that most sources on facebook are just primary sources expressing their opinion without real sources on the ground, and thus discouraged according to WP:FACEBOOK.

However SOHR is a secondary source based on confirmed sources on the ground, so should be considered reliable. It has an excellent track record, only sometimes being slow to recognize changes. André437 (talk) 08:58, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

"based on confirmed sources on the ground"? By whom? Oh, I know, "their names cant be revealed for security reasons". No more candid & poor excuses, please, everybody knows who SOHR supports... SOHR is a partisan activist primary source, wich only can be considered reliable if what they report has been later published by a real reliable secondary journalistic source (a TV, news agency, newspaper, etc...).--HCPUNXKID (talk) 16:23, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Obviously you don't know the definition of primary source. It applies to SANA, because it is a party to the conflict. SOHR is a secondary source, since it is not a party to the conflict. Since most mainstream western media rely on SOHR, they consider SOHR reliable. If we can accept mainstream western media as reliable, we must, by simple logic, accept SOHR as a reliable secondary source. ... note that Wikipedia guidelines say that just because a secondary source has a preferred outcome does not in itself make a source unreliable. Try reading wikipedia policy. You might learn something. André437 (talk) 10:02, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

SOHR reliable and not a party in the conflict? Hahaha, nice joke, you have a nice future as a comedian. " If we can accept mainstream western media as reliable, we must, by simple logic, accept SOHR as a reliable secondary source" It seems that you dont understand the notion of what "logic" is...Nice try, better luck next time with that prepotence...--HCPUNXKID (talk) 18:11, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

You are wrong SOHR pro opposition source here is a look at their website and there is a flag of the Syrian opposition. Syrian Observatory for Human RightsAnd by the way international news agencies also use data SANA and Syria state tv as data SOHR. So no need to argue that the SOHR neutral source.95.134.223.95 (talk) 10:47, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Minbij and Jarabulus

"In the past three days, ISIL has kidnapped at least 51 Kurds in the towns of Minbej and Jarablus," said the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.Among the hostages were nine children and a woman, said the Britain-based group, adding that there was no information on where they had been taken.Minbej and Jarablus are located in Aleppo province, which is home to a Kurdish minority.Syria jihadists kidnap 50 Kurds: activists Syria jihadists kidnap 50 Kurds Hanibal911 (talk) 20:04, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

This isn't information relevant to the map. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:04, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Al-Ghariyah December 6th

7h Dar’aa | Western Ghariyah | Clashes between the Free Syrian Army (FSA) and Assad forces stationed at a nearby checkpoint amid regime heavy artillery shelling on the township.

Sources Local Coordination Committees in Syria. Shaam News Network (SNN) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.35.252.14 (talk) 11:02, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Need a reliable source. Pro opposition and pro government sources are not reliable sources.Hanibal911 (talk) 11:44, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

This source yalla souriya pro oposition blog and is not a reliable source.Hanibal911 (talk) 12:04, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Otaybah

I think the video below already proves that rebels already reached Otaybah and struggling to capture it. It shows the rebels at the entrance of Otaybah (see the board at 0:10)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68Hijo28tTk

If they are in Otaybah, we must also question the regime control in Qasimya, Baharia, Jarba, Qaysa, Abbadeh which pro-rebel sources claim they already stormed them.

Amateur video of militants is not a reliable source. SSA and NDF in Al Otayba Hanibal911 (talk) 20:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

It's not Amateur video of militants it's the Syrian National Defense Press Office http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EfJ-XCtFMQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by LogFTW (talk • contribs) 10:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

In East Gouta the process of the islamic hordes failed and the army and NDF continues to clean the orchards around the town of Al Otaibam, Deir Salman and Marj Sultan of the remains of the rebels.SSA and NDF in Al Otayba Hanibal911 (talk) 20:42, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I have seen this video but it is a youtube video and it says otaybah 1km away and on top of that you should see this video

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=177544942452602 it was posted 21 hours ago and has the army walking around the town and shows the same traffic sign that the rebels filmed.(NOTE:This is a pro-regime video and does not reflect that i'm a supporter of the regime,I came across it searching for info for the Syrian war)It is pretty clear that the rebels just skirmished near the town not inside of it and on top of that you had the rebels lying about there alleged capture of the town early in the offensive in eastern guta and then rebel activists denied that info and said rebels did not make any progress and that they were still under siege.

Fair to point out that the only fighting being reported in recent days is in the Marj area were rebels took quite a lot of losses(according to SOHR).Also the rebel offensive in eastern Guta failed to break the siege which means the government forces and their Shiite militias are still in control of the towns.Al-Jazeera(arabic) also pointed out that rebels didn't break the siege and only fighting was going on in the Marj area.Daki122 (talk) 20:40, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Here is a picture so there is no confusion about the town(same reporter from the video the picture also came with the video) https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1459113_558770940871148_786009580_n.jpg Daki122 (talk) 20:51, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

"Didn't break the siege" is not the same thing as "didn't advance at all". In order for rebels to break the siege, they would need to fully capture and hold Otaybah and the towns west of it. It doesn't seem like they did that successfully, but it does absolutely seem like they at least advanced into the area, given that pro-government media have to report retaking it. That would mean that these towns should have been marked as contested. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:10, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Also that's not the same road sign, look closely. The rebel video shows one saying "18km <– Dumeir/<– Palmyra/1km –>Autaiba", while the NDF video shows one saying "30km –> Damascus/13km –> Nashabiah/1km <– Autaib/8km <– Haran Al awamid/20km <– Airport Road". In fact, the distances seem to work out to place the rebel sign roughly here and NDF sign roughly here—on opposite sides of the town. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:17, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Lothar just to point out that a skirmish on the outskirts of the town near a checkpoint is not the same as fighting in the town.You can see in this article (as the video has no date could have been filmed maybe last year cuz there is no reporter nor an interview its just a bunch of guys screaming around unlike the video i posted)http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2013/Nov-28/239185-battles-rage-around-damascus-jihadists-slay-rival-rebel-leader.ashx#axzz2ln9iUe3A and I quote “The news is completely false,” said a media activist group in the Ghouta suburbs. “The areas of Marj and Eastern Ghouta are still surrounded by Assad troops and their mercenaries. We ask the media and coordination committees to stop playing fast and loose with the blood of the fighters in order to get a scoop.” So this pretty much sums the things up about otayba Daki122 (talk) 21:18, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

And another source that quotes opposition activists in the area http://www.worldtribune.com/2013/11/25/rebels-take-heavy-losses-fail-to-break-siege-near-damascus/Daki122 (talk) 21:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

The claims that the activists reject are those of Otaybah being captured, which I also think are untrue. However, this calls into question the status of the towns west of Otaybah where fighting was reported several days ago. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Daki. Fighting in the area of the town, as the source describes it, is not the same as fighting inside the town itself. EkoGraf (talk) 21:38, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I did't said they are in Otaiba, they are at the entrance of town. So I don't demand anything regarding Otaiba but I demand regarding Qasimya, Baharia, Jarba, Qaysa, Abbadeh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.155.104.15 (talk) 10:02, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes but there is no fighting in the area around those towns SOHR which is pro-opp never reported fighting there the only fighting was in the Marj area which is a very large area.Another thing to keep in mind is that the rebels never entered any towns every credible source like Reuters AJ The Daily Star and others mentioned only attacks on checkpoints near the towns.No mentions of fighting inside the towns.Daki122 (talk) 13:42, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

False. SOHR has reported fighting on the outskirts of Ahmadiyah now, which is further into supposed government territory than Dayr Salman. Bahariyah is also contested. Reports of fighting in unspecified locations in Eastern Ghouta regularly occur, and you cannot reasonably claim that it is impossible that they refer to the areas in question. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:22, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Are you reading your self you just said that the clashes took place near the town not in it.The other says on the front line at Bahariyah,but no mention that fighting is in the towns.Second of this is an insurgency war which means rebels can infiltrate in an area beyond the alleged front lines as civilians(as many times we can see rebels with no military uniform).How do you think the rebels are still fighting in E.Ghuta it is not like they have an air force to bring them ammo and fresh fighters.They just simply infiltrate bypassing army towns in the region.You should remember how many times the Army ambushed the rebels near Adra and Otayba killing up to 60 rebels at a time.This clashes may be happening because army patrols intercept rebels trying to get ammo food and other supplies in the besieged rebel towns nothing new here.Daki122 (talk) 19:15, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

You don't really understand the geography of East Ghouta very well, do you? The entire area is a collection of farming communities with no clear boundaries between farmland and village. Denser clusters of houses bleed out into the surrounding area, and it's hard to even say where one "town" ends and another begins. Just look at it. As defined in official censuses, the "town" includes the both the tighter nucleus and the diffuse surrounding "area" around it. In fact, the communities of East Ghouta are really better understood as "districts" than "towns" or anything else. That was one of the main reasons that it was once shown here with the large faded icon that made certain people mad—it's extremely vague.

Furthermore, Ahmadiyah is tucked deeply within the SAA buffer zone around Damascus International Airport, far from any connections to the outside. It doesn't really reasonably figure into any plausible supply lines, unlike Adra (to Qalamun) or Otaybah (to the vast deserts).However, Dayr Salman, located directly back on the road toward rebel territory, was one of the locations mentioned in the reports of rebel advances—and even pro-government media said that fighting occurred "in the town", in case you were about to split hairs with me again. In order to get from rebel-held East Ghouta to the "area" of Ahmadiyah, the shortest route is through Dayr Salman. You do the math.

The fact that SOHR does not give more specific details is not definitive evidence that nothing happened, like you continually try to claim. Contrary to many people's assumptions, the Observatory isn't some all-seeing eye over Syria. It's run by an exiled dissident who receives information from a broad network of contacts on the ground. These contacts, though generally effective, cannot be everywhere at once, and may very well be restricted by local conditions. It's highly likely that his contacts in East Ghouta have not always been at liberty to disclose locations given the rebel media blackout on the area. Numerous reports of fighting in the general "al-Ghouta al-Sharqiyah" have come out, and there's absolutely no reason to believe that they can't be about fighting here. SOHR may be loosely sympathetic to (parts of) the opposition, but that doesn't mean that it exists to trumpet each and every rebel advance.

I'm not even saying that we should turn anything green, if that's what making you so scared. There is ample evidence to change these locations to simply contested. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk)

But dude this is exactly what i said it is not the towns that are contested it is the countryside around the towns.The towns only act as garrisons and military bases for troops that are stationed there.The towns them self are not contested.See the geography of E.Ghuta the rebels can simply bypass all these towns without bumping in to government check points.I'm not saying that there is no fighting in the area I'm just saying that there is no fighting in the towns(Deir Salman was contested for i while I even gave the source even tough the source (AJ arabic)said that fighting was around the town or more accurate near the Marj area).I do not deny the fighting in E.Ghuta I'm just saying that the fighting is taking place outside these towns.There are 4-6km gaps between the army controlled towns which leaves plenty of room for opposition fighters to move around and clash with the army on checkpoints that they have set up in the Ghuta area.They can attack a town and if they don't succeed they simply vanish into thin air and then regroup and attack again.The clashes have constantly been there since the summer when the army choke off rebel lines and will be there until the army succeeds in capturing all the towns in Ghuta.Daki122 (talk) 12:49, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

And to the point of Deyr Salman the state TV said that weapons were destroyed and did not mention fighting in the town maybe a smuggler tried to get ammo into Ghuta like they do so often.If you ever watched a clip form ANNA news(pro regime TV which of course I do not use as a source but they rely have some cool videos about the war, who follows this war and is of course neutral can rely see some military action on their channel)they often show cars that are meant for the opposition full of ammo in government controlled areas (Even in Homs and Hama city's).Daki122 (talk) 12:57, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Rebels ready to unite with the army against Al Qaeda

The head of the official Syrian rebel force has declared war on al-Qaeda groups in the country, saying he is ready to join arms with government forces against them once President Assad has been ousted.The Times 95.134.193.238 (talk) 08:29, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Not trying to be hostile but what does this have to do with the map? Rob2013 (talk)--75.34.32.158 (talk) 09:18, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, just like that, as information. Maybe someone from experienced users know where this information better place.! 95.134.193.238 (talk) 09:22, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

This is the talk page for both the tables and the map (one is redirected to the other.)

This statement shouldn't be seen as alarmist, since the newly formed Islamic Front, a merger of a wide range of moderate to less moderate islamic forces, has called the ISIS "scum" to be eliminated. Even al-Nusra is against the ISIS. Al-Nusra has promised to abide by a rebel consensus, largely neutralising their al-Qaida association. Given that, once Assad is defeated, just who do you think the remaining regime forces would prefer to associate themselves with ? André437 (talk) 10:48, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

And I may have found information confirming that Nasiriya not contested, and under the control of the army. Although see for yourself, here's the source.ISW 95.134.193.238 (talk) 09:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Ariskar (talk) 10:16, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Map

And where is the map gone? This list is useless, while the map was one of the best resources on the internet for a strategic picture of the development of the war. It is difficult not to be suspicious of the motives of whoever decided to remove it, with the map turning ever more red as time goes on. Batchuba (talk) 19:30, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Wow, this is a really funny comment. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:19, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

The map is there (For a war map of the current situation, see here.) yo just need to click on "here".And for the red part i guess you haven't watched the news for a while or followed the situation of the war in a couple of monthsDaki122 (talk) 20:03, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I've been following it assiduously, hence the awareness of incontrovertible fact that the SAA have taken two long strings of towns since early summer. I guess you are a propagandist of some sort, since it is not really arguable. None of which is relevant, so regardless - thanks for pointing out the link. Batchuba (talk) 04:33, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I cannot understand the real reason that the map is not in the previous position in the webpage opening and has been moved in link status.--Dimitrish81 (talk) 10:21, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Someone should fix it. AOnline (talk) 22:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

No, the map was removed because it's gotten too big for the page to handle correctly. If you try to put it in, it causes the list of references to disappear. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:07, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Naqqarin, Aleppo

Should this town be added and labeled as contested on the map? its just east of aleppo, north-east of the airport. map: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=36.220457&lon=37.264938&z=13&m=b Pro-rebel tweets confirm that the Syrian military has presence in the "Transport Directorate" Building.Rob2013 (talk)23:56, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this village should be added but, between yesterday, it was on SAA hands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.118.35 (talk) 17:39, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Reuters says it is at least contested. OberschIesien90 (talk) 20:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree, it should be added and labeled as contested.Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.32.40 (talk) 22:20, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Done as contested per reuters.Tradedia^talk 06:00, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Syrian TV Report Army have full control from Al Naqqarin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZYHUQU9wyI http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=463_1386015841 — Preceding unsigned comment added by LogFTW (talk • contribs) 05:50, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The Al-Monitor is referring to Naqqarin near Aleppo as regime-captured. It is spelled Nqirin in the article. Should this count as evidence that Naqqarin has been captured by the regime? Does anyone have any more information regarding the situation in Naqqarin? http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/security/2013/12/syria-opposition-regime-spy-phobia.html Eharding (talk) 03:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Done in red. Tradedia^talk

Damascus Countryside

According to opposition, Otaybah is under FSA control. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oussj (talk • contribs) 21:03, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

According to pro government SANA the Syrian Army took over control of Shab'a town.--Dimitrish81 (talk) 20:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Report from SOHR:

Reef Dimashq: The airforce carried out an air raid on the Zamalka city which led to injuries and house damages. Violent clashes broke out between rebel and regular forces in the outskirts of A'rbin city, the southern bypass near Zamalka, the outskirts of Daraiya, and M'adamiyat al-Sham along with regime bombardment on the cities of Daraiya and M'adamiyat al-Sham. Areas in the al-Dmeir city were subject to mortar bombarded by regular forces. 4 civilians, including 1 child, were killed by regime bombardment on areas of the Deir al-A'safir town. The airforce carried out an air raid on areas of al-Ghouta al-Sharqiya. Regular forces took hold of areas in the Shab'a town near the road of the Damascus airport. Rebel fighters denied that regular forces, along with the NDF and the Lebanses Hezbollah, took hold of the entire town. Areas in Zamalka, al-Zabadani, and A'in Tarma were subject to mortar bombardment by regular forces which led to injuries. Clashes broke out between rebel and regular forces in the outskirts of Harasta, at the time when rebel fighters were launching artillery shells on the Idaret al-Markabat building of Harasta. Regular forces bombardment areas in the cities of Ma'loula, Jab'din, al-Jibal al-Sharqiya of Deir A'tiya, and the Rima area near Yabroud city. A man from Rankous was tortured to death under regime detainment.

This was posted yesterday check it out on facebook and put the town government held not contested cuz a pro opp source confirms it.Daki122 (talk) 12:40, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Hold on : your source says "regular forces took hold of areas in the Shab'a town", with rebels denying that all of the town was taken. And SANA often exadurates. So the town is still contested. André437 (talk) 09:57, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Jhalidiya, Qusr and so many other cases SANA report the take over and always for some days SOHR claim battle and presence in towns in order to saw to theie public(logical) a glory fight and tactical withdrawn for moral reasons....--Dimitrish81 (talk) 15:12, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

The town of Sheba'a was taken, the only they are fighting are the surrounding areas of the town itself. Here is a SAA T-72 on the roundabout of the town. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BUaVMgcCQAAG844.jpg:large if you look at the white brick color building on the left side of the picture it matches this exact coordinates(link) http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.448344&lon=36.389677&z=19&m=b&search=Damascus%20Syria

Beit Sahem surrenders, is this true? Some other resources? http://item.liveleak.com/2/view?i=36e_1381286788&comments=1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCO3SQHkzNY&feature=youtube_gdata — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.240.103.2 (talk) 11:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

So they say, we'll have to wait and see. Also jpost.com reporst that Sheikh Omar south of Damascus was also taken; Allegedly the operation was backed by Iraqi shiiet militia & Hezbollah. http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Syrian-opposition-Hezbollah-Iraqi-militia-capture-Damascus-suburb-328296 Also just like in Al Mitras which is right on the border of Tartours and Homs provinces. After 20 NDF fighters were killed the town was heavily bombarded and insurgents struck a deal with the government that they would surrender and hang over the village but allegedly they(insurgents) were executed afterwards.

Al-Akhbar is reporting that in recent weeks the SAA has regained Husseiniya, Dhiyabiya, and Bouweida in western Ghouta. I do not believe the map has been updated to show this. Also it states that in Beit Sahm, north of Sayyida Zainab, opposition and government forces both hold areas and peace negotiations are ongoing. It also states that the towns of Yalda, Babila, and Gharba (which has "nearly been raised to the ground") are all controlled by anti-government forces. http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/syrias-next-major-battle-set-west-ghouta — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.231.106.245 (talk) 20:11, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

The town of Deir al-Asafir is under SAA control according to this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asA2HvUultQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.150.153.74 (talk) 08:33, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Roads

Shouldn't this map show at least the major roads and railways? After all, maneuver is critical in warfare, and that would explain more why this or that city or village is strategic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.8.182.120 (talk)

Absolutely. Someone please create a version of the base Syria location map with those features drawn. Alternatively, we need a picture file that has syria roads on it and nothing else. I can then use the "overlay_image =" parameter in the "Template:Location map+" to overlay that "road file" on top of our map. For an example of the result of this parameter, see a "Location map+" where a picture file with arrows was overlayed on top of it. Unfortunately, i don't know how to create picture files. If anyone can create such a file (same size as our map; with a transparent background) and put it in commons, then i can overlay it on top of our map. Tradedia^talk I brought this back from archives as this is still an ongoing issue. And while we are at this, it would be good to also draw Lake Jabbūl Tradedia^talk

Edit request

The town of Qaysa add it as government held

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rif_Dimashq_offensive_(March_2013%E2%80%93present) http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.491768&lon=36.548252&z=15&m=b

Bases: Tal Gbar http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.387163&lon=36.419120&z=15&m=b Al-Ramadan Military zone http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.606435&lon=36.543746&z=15&m=b Brigade 15 http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.041838&lon=36.159782&z=14&m=b Brigade 109(north of Snamayan) http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.079316&lon=36.220808&z=14&m=b Brigade 82(Ash Sheik Miskin) http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=32.850894&lon=36.173601&z=14&m=b&gz=0;361507701;328375174;0;14423;28324;12980;4291;24519;858;7211;15449;0;25749;7211 Brigade 132 http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=32.629527&lon=36.101503&z=16&m=b

79.126.207.225 (talk) 14:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC) Hatetat al-Turkman is under full government control Various sources.Just google it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.128.189.197 (talk) 17:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Qaysa was added in red; Brigade 15 was added (i found some sources); Hatetat al-Turkman was made red. On the other hand, for the other ones, some source need to be given so we make sure a military base is still under gov control and was not already destroyed by rebels. Tradedia^talk 06:00, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

”Detailed map” too large to be transcluded into “cities article”

Sadly, I have discovered that the reference section is not transcluding into the article (Cities and towns during the Syrian civil war). When you edit the article and click on “Show preview”, you get the message: “Warning: Template include size is too large. Some templates will not be included.” The only large template transcluded into the article (other than the reference section) is the Template:Syrian civil war detailed map. The reference section not transcluding is obviously unacceptable. Therefore, it seems like we need to replace the transclution of the map, with a link to the Template:Syrian civil war detailed map. I will be doing this in a few days, unless someone can figure out a better solution. Tradedia^talk 22:19, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Here are a few options :

1) We can use a redirection shortcut to replace the full page title in links.

As well as greatly reducing the size of links, it also reduces the typing required to create a link. I would suggest using something unique like "ct:scw", unlikely to be entered accidently. Then in our map we could replace the long title of the main page with these 6 characters. It is just a matter of creating the shortcut before using it. I've tested it in my talk page, so I know it works.

To let editors of the map know that it is available, we just need to add comment(s) like

Note that whatever we do, this change would make editing a lot easier and less error-prone.

2) The 2 older images just under the main map could be moved to another page.

3) The map could be made more compact by reducing longitude/latitude locations to 3 decimal places, which is increments of 110 metres (It is often now 6 decimal places, increments of 11 cm). Note that 2 decimal places is increments of over 1 km, so that isn't advisable for close positioning.

4) Maybe my plan to split up the cities table would allow including everything, since the tables would require less processing. I was planning to do that in the next few days.

5) My plan to remove links from labels would save a lot of space. I haven't tested anything with Lother yet. He is very sceptical ...

From another point of view, having the map on a separate page could be an advantage for keeping the map and tables in sync. They could be loaded in separate tabs or windows for easier comparison.

Anyway, whatever you like, I'm willing to help ... André437 (talk) 17:16, 15 October 2013 (UTC) -- points 1 + 3 modified André437 (talk) 00:22, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

We just need to decide what shortcut for the page name we want, and I can quickly reduce the size of our map by about 20% - 25% (assuming a 6-character abreviation for the 44-character name. Even more if we choose 5 characters.) André437 (talk) 15:36, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

BTW, this will be essentially transparent to the user (just a comment in very small type at the top of the page)

I suggest scw,c (or scw,ct) -- page names that work, are easy to use, and highly unlikely to be otherwise used André437 (talk) 16:41, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

OK, I created the redirect shortcut ("scw,c" to replace "Cities_and_towns_during_the_Syrian_civil_war" in links)

I just want confirmation before I translate the current links (shouldn't take more than 20 minutes). I would add an explanitory comment at the beginning and end. André437 (talk) 02:07, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

BTW, this is only intended for the map André437 (talk) 02:10, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Below is my response to your points:

1) Fine with me. I've never done it, but trust you on it...

2) I don't think image files count towards Template include size limit.

3) Fine with me.

However, all these are only medium term solutions. Over time, the map will grow again in size as more towns & military bases are added. Also, the reference section in the article will tend to grow over time... Tradedia^talk 21:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Ok (1) is done. There are some other places to save some space, e.g. duplicate labels on nested circles.

I'll work on those and (3) André437 (talk) 13:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

After completing the division of the table by governorate, I got another idea that will greatly reduce the size of the tables.

First, note that many updates to the map are not recorded to the tables, since quite a few months. Few locations show anything since 2012.

Also, many locations have a great many entries, mostly in 2012 or earlier.

As well, the map tries to show the current situation.

So I propose :

1) We use the tables to show only the more recent activity for each location, at least the last 3 months and at least the last 3 changes. For some locations, that would keep everything since the beginning. We could rename this page to something like "Syrian civil war - current status".

2) We create a parallel page, say called something like "Syrian civil war - history", to which we transfer the older entries. This could be quite big, since it will have no map to transclude.

3) We transfer the extra older entries on a regular basis, but we can take our time. I wouldn't be surprised if it cuts the size of the tables in the "current" page in half, leaving lots of room for our map. Note that with the entries we transfer the references, which is what takes most of the space.

4) To make it easier to maintain, I suggest that, in the editor, we start each entry on a new phyical line. If we want we could make it display on a new line as well, using the newline button (just above the edit area).

5) For a transfer session, it would be best to open 2 windows, do a series of transfers, save the destination (history) page first, then the source (current) page. Doing one governorate table at a time should work well.

6) I could set up the initial page and do the initial transfer. And maybe do the transfers on a regular basis (say once a week or so), if no-one else wants to.

7) Note that this would leave lots of space to include all references for map changes, something that hasn't been done, but should be. This would facilitate reviewing map changes and maybe revising them in questionable cases.

So what do you think of the idea ? I really think that this would solve the map size problem on a permanent basis. André437 (talk) 08:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

this page is in Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded mostly due to the incredibly complex map at the top of the article, which is causing the rendering to crash near the end (note the lack of navboxes or reflist). the map should be simplified or removed to fix the problem. Frietjes (talk) 15:37, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

This "incredibly complex" map is a key part of the page. Just by reducing the size of the main page - which is twice the size of the main map - would give more than enough more space for the map.

The reflist was removed since recently the total size of the main page + inclusions (including the map) started to cauuse display problems.

The size of the main page can be considerably reduced by transfering the older entries (which don't reflect current positions) to a history page, as suggested at the end of this section. André437 (talk) 19:05, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

BTW, I could set up the initial history page to show what it looks like. Its' total size should be not much more than the size reduction of the current main page. If it looks good, the main page size could then be quickly reduced to fix the problem

(If the war lasts another 10 years, the history page could always be split - e.g. by governorate - if it became to big.) André437 (talk) 23:24, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of areas currently held by Syrian opposition Tradedia^talk 01:09, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Interesting reading. Thanks for showing me the page. It reinforces my opinion that we should divide the page into current and history as I suggested.

An important argument missing in that discussion is that encyclopedias can and sometimes do show transient information for political situations, which will eventually become historical facts.

As well, that page referred to only one side, in the early stages of the rebellion. This page, and its' map, refer to both sides in the entire country.

To counter the problem about references, I think that ensuring that the references are in the tables *before* being updated on the map will help ensure that they are reliable. It also allows more easily verifying them later on, particularly if we transfer older information (as I suggested) to a historical page. The historical page of course would not be easily contestable, since it couldn't be accused of containing transient information or news.

As far as the news element, it is not simply headlines, but recording of historical events. Everything could be considered news at some point, but recording the current position in a war has historical importance, and is a coherent coverage of a particular subject, and not random information united only by the date of the event. Having a page to keep track of events as they happen helps develop a coherent history on the subject, which is what the proposed history page would be. This history page is something that didn't exist when that previous page was deleted.

To assure that this change will not cause a problem,

(a) is there a way we could refer the issue for a decision, or

(b) do you think it would be better to try it and revert if it turns out to be a problem. If we revert it we would probably have to separate the map from the table page, or else reduce useful information.

As you can see, I would rather try to have separate current / historical pages if we can. It would allow us to keep all the details we would like. As well as helping to make the table and maps easier to maintain, and thus more reliable. And I would be very happy to contribute to any discussion on the issue that may arise. As well as helping update the pages.

Of course, how we procede is up to you. :) André437 (talk) 04:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I am indifferent. Tradedia^talk 00:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll create the history page and remove the older entries from the current page as outlined, in the next few days. André437 (talk) 05:58, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Tradedia

Reflecting on everything again, I think that your original idea of moving the map to a new page was better, as it would be somewhat easier to maintain. As well, setting up the new page I suggested is a lot more time-consuming than I thought.

A new map page could include all the maps, including those in the commented out links.

It won't take long to revert the table changes already done. (Meanwhile, there are links to everything transferred.)

If you like, I could set up the new map page. I'll have a fair bit of time the next few days.

Maybe call it "Syrian civil war - maps" ? (or something similar)

Just let me know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by André437 (talk • contribs) 11:50, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok. However, no need to create a new page. I just replaced the transclution of the map, with a link to the Template:Syrian civil war detailed map. Tradedia^talk 12:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Someone should ban Sopher99

This guy is rely getting on my nerves and should be banned he is always pro-rebel and is just trying to flip out some lies just look what sentence he used to change Seyada Zeynab status The area around the mosque revered by Shi'ites as the burial site of a grand-daughter of the prophet Mohammad has been the scene of heavy fighting.

If you can't read go back to school SOHR hasn't reported a fight in Seeyada Zeynab since last year someone should change the town back to government held!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/04/us-syria-crisis-iran-idUSBRE9A30H620131104

79.126.222.210 (talk) 18:50, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I guess you missed this SOHR reference from Nov 1, where the regime bombarded the town again. It is reported on SOHR every few days, which definitely suggests a rebel presence. (Other sites report it as well.) It is generally mixed in with a lot of other clashes/bombardment in Damascus province, so it is easy to miss. André437 (talk) 07:31, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Reef Dimashq: Violent clashes are still ongoing between rebel and regular forces in the outskirts of the Beit Sahem town near the Damascus international airport, along with regime bombardment on the town, the Beit Jen town and its fields and the Jard Bloudan area which led to several injuries. Clashes broke out between rebel and regular forces in the outskirts of the Daraiya and M'adamiyat al-Sham cities and the area in between the Kanaker and Shaqhab towns, reports of human losses from both sides. The al-Zabadani city was subject to regime bombardment earlier this morning which led to several injuries. Several mortar shells, launched by regular forces, fell on the Yelda town, the outskirts of Hosh A'ran and the Barti al-Qariba area, along with regime bombardment on al-Sbeina. Violent clashes are still ongoing between regular forces, NDF combatants, fighters from the Lebanese Hezbollah, and the Abu Fadel al-A'bbas battalion (which consists of Shi'i fighters from Syrian and non-Syrian nationalities) from one side and rebel fighters from the other in the perimeter of the al-Jawiya base in al-Sbeina, in an attempt by rebel fighters to regain control over the strategic area.

OK tell me where does it mention Seyada Zeynab in the article above which you posted here just read it and tell me does it mention the town.The only fighting and bombardment on Seyada Zeynab came from the string of towns that were south of it and rebels lunched mortars from them but after the army sized these towns only rebel presence near the town is to the east of it coming from al-Maleha79.126.251.36 (talk) 09:34, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I believe Sohper99 has blatanly violated 1RR and more than twice was admin warned in respect to this template.Ariskar (talk) 15:12, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok I was mistaken about that post, but your knowledge of the geography is a little lacking. al-Maleiha is the other side of the airport road and Jaramana, and Babila and Beit Sham are just north of Sayyida Zaynab (which has so many different spellings that it gets confusing). About a month or so ago I saw reports of the rebels having taken a section of the western part of Sayyida Zaynab (and the regime air force bombing the area), although I don't have the references handy. I've also seen a number of reports of regime bombing parts of the town. So to say that nothing has happened there in a year is gross exageration. BTW, if you notice reports of the air force bombing a rebel held air defence base in the Ghouta, it is just west of the town. So if it happens that the rebels are not *in* the town, they hold areas right next to it. André437 (talk) 08:43, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes they held areas next to it about a month ago but when the army offensive started everything changed they captured the strings of towns that rebels used for supplies around Seyada Zeynab (Buweida Hateit-Al-Trukman Shebaa Al-Zayabeyah Sheikh Ombar and others)And they pushed out all of the rebels around Seyada Zeynab.They also are on the offensive north of the town and Shiite militias are supporting the regime in their fight in Babbila and Yalda so again the post from SOHR was month ago and there have been no reports on fighting in the town since which means it was just a skirmish on the town nothing else79.126.221.131 (talk) 11:12, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok can someone please ban this guy he changed Seyada Zeynab again using the same article from Reuters with the same sentence the area is under the control of the Army!79.126.221.131 (talk) 18:25, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I believe we have a WP:CONSENSUS throughout various incidents and discussions in the Talk pages. He was officially warned twice for 1RR violation. It is of the interest of WP to ban users that express their POV without references, using old or misleading references for current events and going against commonly agreed topics in Talk page. This user should be banned.194.158.25.65 (talk) 10:36, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone contacted an admin yet? I guess nobody did because he is still editing, but I want to be sure before reporting (I would go with "Long-term abuse" as he has been done this for months). The latest one was marking Hama as contested.--Andres arg (talk) 20:54, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

For all of those still in denial, here is another report of SOHR about the regime bombing parts of Sayyeda Zeinab. There have been many such reports, as I noted earlier. They may be a little hard to notice, since generally many clashes/bombardments for the 2 Damascus provinces are put in the same post. Seriously, you don't think that the regime would bombard a town if there were not a rebel presence, do you ? So there is evidence to support Sopher's posts for this town being contested (purple square) or at least besieged (green circle). André437 (talk) 19:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

SOHR is not a reliable source as repeatedly discussed (WP:CONSENSUS). Logic would say that SOHR and SANA could be used as a source when reporting something negative for their supporting side. Anyway, Sopher99 has overdone it with one-sided edits with no, bad or misleading references. He has also violated 1RR many times.194.158.25.65 (talk) 15:03, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Just to say that I reported him, but nobody did anything so far. Maybe my report was not good, as I did not know how to do it. however I included a lot of links to his infractions. Hopefully someone will take care of it someday.--Andres arg (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

He was banned for 72h and blocked for editing Syrian Civil War topics by admin review for 2 weeksAriskar (talk) 15:12, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Tal Aran

Al-Jazeera(pro-opposition) says the town was recaptured by government forces here is the report.

A bomb explosion rocked the heart of the Syrian capital on Wednesday, killing at least eight people and wounding 50 others, state media reported.

The blast came as rebels seized parts of a key arms depot in the central province of Homs and regime forces recaptured most of the Kurdish town of Tal-Aran in the northern province of Aleppo, a monitor said.

Also in Aleppo, fighters from the Al-Qaeda-affiliated Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) seized a major power plant, said the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.

The blast in central Damascus hit Al-Hijaz Square, killing eight people including two women.

State news agency SANA said it was caused by a bomb placed at the entrance to the Hijaz railroad company and that more than 50 people had been wounded, among them women and children.

http://live.aljazeera.com/Event/Syria_Live_Blog

79.126.221.131 (talk) 16:42, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

It is still under siege not really fully taken yet, here is a video of SyrianTv reporting on the Tal Aran front line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7VFwmpZZxI Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.39.196 (talk) 04:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Youtube video is not garanted to be reliable. You can upload video there and pretend everything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kostadin24 (talk • contribs) 09:01, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

True@"Youtube video is not garanteed to be reliable" but most videos posted by SAMA or Syrian TV still show correspondents on the frontline along Tal Aran which means the town is not fully controlled and it is still contested but it may fully fall soon. Usually when a town is taken they report from atleast within the town itself. Here is another video of SAA/NDF shelling the town. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIV40QjDqhs , just my two cents.Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.27.201 (talk) 05:03, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Also note that the reference given says "most of the Kurdish town of Tal-Aran". It doesn't even seem to be a confirmed report. (Which a source like SOHR would normally have.) So I would say it should be either beseiged or contested, not taken by the regime. (Remember how many times SANA, sometimes backed by a western reporter, claimed to have taken Darayya ?) André437 (talk) 11:45, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

The army retook Tall Aran and this videos says that fighting is mostly concentrated on the entrance of Tall Hasel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAC0WmJ2WHk#t=135

79.126.201.136 (talk) 13:26, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Well it was confirm just today by state media; heres the link. the third paragraph http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/10/us-syria-crisis-conflict-idUSBRE9A90D620131110 Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.37.147 (talk) 03:50, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Brigade 15, Dara'a Governorate

Brigade 15 base should be added please, it is still in Syrian Army control. It is located just Northeast of Inkhil on the road to Sanamayn. Map: http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=33.035435&lon=36.159782&z=12&m=b&show=/23977059/Army-Base-Brigade-15&search=Daraa%20Syria Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.44.66 (talk) 05:45, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

It was recently mentioned here and here. I will add it later today. Next time, please include some source so we make sure a military base is still under gov control and was not already destroyed by rebels. Tradedia^talk 00:05, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, will add source next time. Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.36.67 (talk) 04:09, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Al-Tabqa (Thawra)

Clashes were reported by pro-opp SOHR near the military hospital in the town and it said they were between regular forces and rebels.This is not the only report about fighting in the town I have seen many reports on SOHR about clashes and bombardments of the towns outskirts and regular forces being in control of the military hospital.Here is the report:

al-Raqqa province: The intersection between al-Tabaqa city and al-Safsafa village was bombarded by regular forces along with clashes between rebel and regular forces in the outskirts of al-Tabaqa military hospital. Activists reported to the SOHR that the ISIS released the assistant of al-Nusra's Emir in al-Raqqa whereas they kept the Emir himself under detainment after he was kidnapped more than 45 days earlier. Reports that a regular soldier was shot by a rebel sniper in the 17th division.

79.126.255.22 (talk) 13:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

According to info in this 21 Nov. article on Al-Bawaba, Tabqa (Al-Thawra) had been moved by me to contested. I quote: "Activists and the Observatory said that fierce fighting also took place between government troops and rebels in areas near Aleppo, as well as the northern town of Tabqa, on the Euphrates River.".--HCPUNXKID (talk) 19:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

QUDSAYA AND AL TALL

You put these 2 towns under Rebells hands. Yesterday, they was completely under SAA hands. How it could change in one day as, as far as I know, there is no "big" news from rebells camp ?. PLease give your sources !!. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.118.35 (talk) 23:10, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

The situation is realy complicated in this two towns there no clashes and the oppositions seems to be based on locals there no clashes and I think that we should add another sign for towns like these that are not contested something like 50%-50% control because there seems to be some kind of truce in those towns army units can enter the town and rebels don't attack them same with rebels.I thinks we should add another color for those kind of towns where there is truce and there is no conflict between the two sides 79.126.182.222 (talk) 23:39, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Generally speaking - we have 2 different situations. First - when control of city was changed. Second - when we didn't know who control city before/lack of information/. Each situation have different meaning - change of status quo or just fill missing part of map Kostadin24 (talk) 10:52, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

So, if nobody knows what's happen in these 2 towns, why are they green circled by red ?.How can we believe that there is fight between SAA and rebells everywhere in Syria but in these 2 towns ?. Totally unbelievable !!. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.118.35 (talk) 18:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I think both towns should be removed because they are not part of the front line and are not part of the fighting neither do the rebels control the towns nor the government has any presence there are deals between government and opposition figures that resulted in a peace deal in the towns where opposition activists will be left alone as long as they don't attack government supporters or soldiers in and around the towns my proposal is either get them a color of neutrality or remove them from the map as they don't have rebel(armed opposition) presence nor do they have foreigners which is way these deals were made with no fighting and clashes.Daki122 (talk) 14:59, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

How can we trust that these areas are "neutrals" or that there is a "peace deal" ?. Please give sources of that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.118.35 (talk) 18:02, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

QUDSAYA city not under the control of the opposition, and by agreement jointly patrolled by the Syrian army and opposition activists:: On Saturday, November 9, military sources announced an agreement had been reached in Qudsia, a city of 40,000 residents. The agreement establishes a ceasefire and a joint security committee from the army and the opposition militants, under the Syrian flag, which will be raised in the town square. Also as part of the agreement, the two roads leading to Qudsia will be reopened – the old Safsaf Avenue and the road that links the city to its main suburb.http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/syria-militants-capitulate-damascus-countryside

Thanks a lot for this update about Qudsaya (just one source. No others for confirmation ?). And for Al Tall ?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.220.156.2 (talk) 10:48, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Another comment : If so, you have not the right to put this town either green or red. So, delete it or choose anoher color (witch is my preference). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.220.156.2 (talk) 10:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I propose it should be nested red & green, similar to some towns in Kurdish zones like Qamishli. Esn (talk) 12:55, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

User:Esn that is probably the best idea for the towns should be showed as Qamishli and Hasaka Daki122 (talk) 16:16, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

East of Allepo airport

On some sources I saw news about villages between airport and Kweiris military airport. Should we add them to map. At moment there are fights and we can't show them on map. Kostadin24 (talk) 12:36, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Most villages between aleppo and Kweiris are mostly been shelled by artillery and airstrikes, a recent gain was by ISIS seizing the Power plant.Rob2013 (talk)

Anyway. Adding info will be more informative.Kostadin24 (talk) 09:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

As you wish, Aleppo power plant seizure by Al Qaeda http://www.islamistgate.com/151 Rob2013 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.32.40 (talk) 23:10, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

[1] ttps://www.facebook.com/ShaamNewsNetwork/posts/595097327204713

[2] rticle about the situation in Rabia (in Arabic)

[1]

[2]