Talk:Champions (American TV series)

Guest cast appearances need to be verifiable

I've added an {{Unreferenced section}} tag to the 'Guest' cast section of this article, because guest cast appearances need to be easily verifiable. There are probably two ways to do this: either use of an independent reliable source (e.g. a press article mentioning the guest appearance on the show), or some kind of referencing to the episode in which the guest cast appears, either by mentioning the article title in the character summary prose or as an inline source using {{cite episode}}. But one of those needs to happen, as per WP:BURDEN and WP:V. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:31, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

My apologies, BoogerD – I didn't catch that you'd put the episode titles in parenthetically. Thanks for that. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:09, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

No problem. I took your undo in good faith given your deep resume of quality editing on here. Cheers! BoogerD (talk) 17:11, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Josie Totah

Hi there, MOS:TVCAST does not mandate that we only refer to actors by the name that appears in the show credits. The respectful thing to do with trans public figures is to refer to them by the name and pronouns they prefer, even retroactively, unless they express a preference to the contrary. It is extremely inappropriate to refer to Totah as "him" in Wikipedia prose, and it is respectful to format quotations about her in such a way as to avoid referring to her as "him" when possible. AJD (talk) 22:45, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Amaury You and I have discussed this issue (right here actually: Talk:Josie Totah) in the past specifically as it relates to Totah's past credits and you have pointed to specific policy regarding it. My knowledge of policy and the MOS is growing but still limited. Can you add to this discussion? – BoogerD (talk) 22:54, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

BTW, what MOS:TVCAST says is that "names should be referred to as credited, or by common name supported by a reliable source." Josie Totah is the actor's name, and is supported by a reliable source. AJD (talk) 02:01, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

No, that is not the intent of TVCAST at all – what it means is: "Names should be referred to as credited, or by common name supported by a reliable source [in the absence of crediting]." Totah was credited as J.J., and that is how it should be listed at this article. And was actually referred to as "J.J. Totah" in the sourcing that referred to this show. This is also per longstanding precedent in cases such as Caitlyn Jenner (credited for a long time a Bruce Jenner, which was not changed after the name change), etc. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:36, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

We don't overwrite what factually happened in the past with changes that occurred later. One of the key reasons for "names per credits" is to avoid arguments such as this. Redirects take name links to the proper article. If uncomfortable with pronoun usage avoid using pronouns. As for common name, that is backup for when a credited name isn't available and is not applicable in this case as we do have a credited name. Geraldo Perez (talk) 02:48, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Is this actually long-standing precedent? I call your attention to Family Ties (crediting Meredith Baxter, not Baxter-Birney); The Doctors (1963 TV series), crediting Ellen Burstyn, not Macrae; One Life to Live cast members, crediting Phylicia Rashad, not Ayers-Allen; Crossing Jordan, crediting Mahershala Ali, not Mahershalalhashbaz. And those are just the first four I checked, based on literally the first four actors who changed their names that I thought of. It seems to me that this principle is not actually very widely observed.

And in any event, that's not a justification for mis-pronouning Totah in the body text of this article, or for not formatting the quotes in such a way as to avoid mis-pronouning her when possible. The reversion of that component of my edits has still not been justified or defended by anyone. If you think my edits to her name are against policy, you can correct those without reverting the whole edit. AJD (talk) 02:56, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it is – if those other articles are listing a name other than what was credited on the show, then it's wrong, and should be changed (though things get more complicated if the "as credited" name changes or changed over the course of the TV series...). "Names as per credits" is in MOS:TVCAST, MOS:FILMCAST, and WP:FILMOGRAPHY now – it's the way things are supposed to be correctly done. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:09, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Thought of another one! A Dangerous Man: Lawrence After Arabia lists Alexander Siddig, not Siddig El-Fadil. (Well, it says "Alexander Siddig (as Siddig El-Fadil)".) That's 0 for 5 so far; y'all are going to have a lot of editing to do to make sure TV show articles actually conform to this policy—it hasn't been observed for literally any actor who's changed their name who I've thought of so far. AJD (talk) 03:26, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)@Ajd: Names per credits has always been the rule mostly as it is derived from WP:Verifiability and credits are generally easy to check and they are authoritative. People changing credit info in articles when names change is a common problem that is not always caught and corrected. An actor will change their name and someone will dutifully search for the old name and change it. One of the reasons for WP:Other stuff exists not generally setting precedents is inconsistency of many editors working on different articles, and the guidelines are an attempt to get some level of consistency, not always successfully. As for your other edits not related to changing the credited name, I suggest re-adding just them. I doubt that would be a problem. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:29, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Three of the five actors I thought of changed their names long before Wikipedia existed, so the appearance of e.g. "Phylicia Rashad" in One Life to Live cast members isn't just the result of someone "dutifully searching for the old name and changing it," as you put it—she's been listed as Phylicia Rashad there for as long as the article has existed. I take your point about the motivation for the policy—though I still think this is a bad policy to have, at least / especially in the case of transgender individuals, for whom deadnaming is considered highly inappropriate and hurtful. And, again, the fact that the policy wasn't observed for any of the first five actors I looked it up for suggests that not a lot of editors actually think this is a useful policy in actual practice. AJD (talk) 03:43, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

The proper place to discuss the guidelines is on the guideline talk pages. I would oppose any changes and I expect most film and tv project editors would as well. Editors who are aware of the guidelines generally follow them. Editors who are not aware usually just get pointed to them and most will honor them after being told about them. Changing credit info in existing articles requires research to get it right if the info has been there a long time. I generally fix credits in articles after watching a movie or TV episode where the info is available and leave things alone when I am unsure of what is correct. As for gender WP:GENDERID covers the situation well. The main person's article has the most focus on getting it right. Articles where the person is just a minor part of the article itself don't change unless there is a good reason related to the subject to do so. Geraldo Perez (talk) 04:14, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

In any event, does anybody object to avoiding referring to Totah as "him" in the article? And if so, why? AJD (talk) 03:26, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

I personally have no problems with avoiding pronouns. Geraldo Perez (talk) 03:30, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

But don't change direct quotes and misrepresent what people who are quoted actually stated. People are not going to update historical records and we should remain accurate in reporting that that record states. Avoid pronouns is fine when done with care. Changing what we report other people as stating is not. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:27, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Above you literally said "As for your other edits not related to changing the credited name, I suggest re-adding just them. I doubt that would be a problem." If you had objections to those edits, I wish you had stated them then rather than waiting for me to do what you recommended and then immediately wholesale reverting it rather than attempting to do something constructive.

I don't understand your objection. I didn't change direct quotes, and I didn't misrepresent what anyone actually stated. I just used shorter quotations so as to avoid misgendering Totah. There's nothing wrong, in general, with using shorter direct quotations and still communicating the sense of what the source said. MOS:GENDERID specifically recommends adjusting the portion of the quotation used to avoid misgendering someone, and using "[sic]" where necessary. AJD (talk) 17:43, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

The only difference between "Margaret Lyons said 'Mr. Totah is superb'" and "Margaret Lyons called Totah's performance 'superb'" is that the former needlessly misgenders Totah and the latter does not. There's no misrepresentation, and no meaningful loss of information. AJD (talk) 17:46, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

{{ec} Using [sic] is only for actual mistakes, such as a typos or misspellings, like a quote having "who's" instead of "whose." And yes, you did. Changing Margaret Lyons saying... to Margaret Lyons called her performance "superb"... changes the context of what Margaret Lyons said. Amaury (talk | contribs) 17:49, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Again, MOS:GENDERID literally recommends using "[sic]" when it's impossible to avoid misgendering someone in a quotation. And I have absolutely no idea what on earth you mean by "changes the context"—how is the context changed? The context is, Totah was praised for her performance; and Margaret Lyons's comment is an example of that. AJD (talk) 17:55, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

(Also, it seems like you're moving the goalposts here; Geraldo Perez said that I changed direct quotes and misrepresented what people said. That's false, and so now you're saying I changed the context—which is also false, but a different assertion, so I don't see how you get there with "yes, you did.") AJD (talk) 18:00, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

I made another pass at rewording. See if that is acceptable. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:03, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

That seems fine. AJD (talk) 18:11, 5 September 2018 (UTC)