Talk:Chakchegŏn

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Requested move 26 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Chakchegon. The discussion resulted in a definite consensus to move to either Chakchegon or Chakchegŏn, but was split on whether it's appropriate to use the diacritic. The RM was relisted to seek a stronger consensus, but no further participation resulted, so I'm going to make a WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE close; I've selected Chakchegon to be most WP:CONSISTENT with article titles for other monarchs of Goryeo, as I feel that argument was more strongly supported than the WP:COMMONNAME claim against it. (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Uijo of Goryeo → Jakjegeon – WP:COMMONNAME per English sources. WP:COGNOMEN should not apply as the individual was never a king himself, only granted the title posthumously by his descendants. For example, see Yuwen Tai, Yi Chun, and Crown Prince Sado. All three individuals, just like Jakjegeon, were posthumously recognized as monarchs by their descendants and granted posthumous names and temple names. Calling Jakjegeon by his temple name Uijo of Goryeo could potentially confuse a reader into thinking that he actually ruled the Kingdom of Goryeo, rather than his true status of a small mercantile regional lord from modern-day Kaesong. There is a precedent on the English Wikipedia to not call individuals who were posthumously granted the title of king by their posthumous names nor temple names, rather by the personal names they used in their lifetimes. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 01:29, 26 July 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 16:52, 7 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – Material Works 13:40, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Here are some English sources to prove that Uijo is known by his personal name (작제건/Jakjegeon/Chakchegon) rather than his temple name of Uijo. From P'yŏnnyŏn T'ongnok: The Foundation Legend of the Koryŏ State by Michael C. Rogers: "As he was about to leave, the nobleman said, "I am of the nobility of Great T'ang," and, presenting her with bow and arrows, he said, "If you should give birth to a boy, give these to him." And indeed she bore a male child, whom she called Chakchegon." From Japanese Myths of Descent from Heaven and Their Korean Parallels by Obayashi Taryo, "The similarity between the Chakchegon legend and the Nigihayahi myth would appear fairly tenuous. Nevertheless there is a feature in the Chakchegon legend, namely the present of bow and arrows, which is of special interest in this connection and to which we now turn." From "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly: Personalities in the Founding of the Koryo Dynasty" by G. Cameron Hurst III, "Some attention is given to the career of his granfather Chakchegon and that of his father Yonggon (later Yung) who seems to have been active in an area stretching from Songak (Wang Kon's birthplace) and the coastal plains around the Imjin and Yesong Rivers southwest to Kanghwa Island." From A Genealogy of Dissent: The Progeny of Fallen Royals in Chosŏn Korea by Eugene Y. Park, "Yung’s father, Chakchegŏn (ca. 830–n.d.), maintained a sphere of influence extending beyond Kaesŏng, including nearby locales such as Chŏngju, Yŏnan, Paekch’ŏn, and Kanghwa, an island located at the mouth of the Han River to the south." Further searches on Google Scholar and Google Books should show the dominance of Chakchegon in English compared to Uijo. ⁂CountHacker (talk) 01:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Makes sense. However, WP:COMMONNAME overrules MOS:KO, and I think it would be better moved to Chakchegon, which most reflects English-language usage (while some Korean sources use the South Korean government spelling, they're usually required to do so by Korean journals and don't reflect usage outside of Korea). :3 F4U (they/it) 12:37, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: After reviewing WP:NCKO and the arguments made by F4U, I now believe that the article should be moved to the title of Chakchegŏn rather than Jakjegeon. WP:NCKO states that pre-1945 Koreans should be called via McCune–Reischauer romanization, which as stated by F4U is the most commonly used romanization by historians and academics in the field of Korean Studies, especially in Korean history.⁂CountHacker (talk) 23:30, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@CountHacker Chakchegon would be correct. Wikipedia does not use diacritics for other MR romanizations. :3 F4U (they /it) 13:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Freedom4U, you are correct in saying that Wikipedia currently does not use diacritics for other MR romanizations. The thing is that the only pages that currently use McCune–Reischauer romanization are North Korea-related articles which are the WP:COMMMONNAME in English sources without the diacritics. (ex. Pyongyang instead of P'yŏngyang & Kim Yong-chol instead of Kim Yŏng-ch'ŏl). However, in most reliable English-language sources on historical pre-1945 Koreans, names with diacritics are the WP:COMMMONNAME. (ex. Wang Kŏn instead of Wang Kon & Ch'oe Ch'ung-hŏn instead of Choe Chunghon) We cannot apply the same standards for North Korea-related articles to articles about pre-1945 Koreans. If you analyze the four sources I posted above, they all utilize the form of Chakchegŏn (with diacritics) instead of Chakchegon (without diacritics). ⁂CountHacker (talk) 21:57, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Relisting to get a consensus on whether Chakchegŏn (with diacritics) or Chakchegon (without diacritics) should be picked. – Material Works 13:40, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.