Talk:Causes of gender incongruence

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On 10 April 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Causes of transsexuality to Causes of gender incongruence. The result of the discussion was moved.

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Ettner, Randi; Monstrey, Stan; Coleman, Eli (20 May 2016). "Theories of the Etiology of Transgender Identity". Principles of Transgender Medicine and Surgery. Routledge. pp. 3–16. ISBN 978-1-317-51459-6.
Bakker, Julie (1 January 2013). Sex Differentiation: Organizing Effects of Sex Hormones. Springer. pp. 3–23.
Klink, Daniel (2013). Genetic Aspects of Gender Identity Development and Gender Dysphoria. Springer. pp. 25–51.
de Vries, Annelou (2013). Gender Identity Development: A Biopsychosocial Perspective. Springer. pp. 53–80. doi:10.1007/978-1-4614-7441-8_3.

Why the Use of FtM and MtF?

I noticed this page makes frequent use of the abbreviations FtM and MtF. Why is this? From what I understand these terms are more casual, slang terms that shouldn't be used in an article about science, or even really on an encyclopedia. They also seem to be falling out of use generally. Would anyone be against me editing to remove them and use better language?

Sudonymous (talk) 02:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Simply refer to the kind of people traditionally known as MtF's as "trans women". Also, please note that trans women contrast with cis women, not real women, biological females, or women-born-women. Georgia guy (talk) 02:31, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is no grounds for a blanket change, although it's possible there are some where it isn't needed. However, we need to stick to the terminology of the sources. "Transsexual" (which "MtF" often appears next to) is a smaller set than "transgender", referring specifically in these sources to those who sought medical transition and surgery. And "MtF" does appear in many of the sources. How common it is in everyday discourse does not matter as this is a science article which uses more technical terms when the sources do. Crossroads ^-talk- 04:21, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't heard of them falling out of usage, but I think these terms are more informative than trans woman and trans man. People who are unfamiliar with the terms may think trans woman means ftm because afab who is trans or trans man means mtf because amab who is trans, even well intentioned people. There was a twitter meme a while ago based on this https://www.reddit.com/r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns/comments/a1fv1o/transmenarenotwomen/ mtf makes it clear they are born male and transitoning to female and vice versa for ftms MaitreyaVaruna (talk) 16:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It also covers more of the "spectrum" (to put it somehow) of transition, e.g. transmasculine and transfeminine individuals that identify outside of the gender binary in cases like this. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 16:46, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@A. C. Santacruz I think MtX and FtX are the preferred terms for nonbinary people, but yes mtf is still a better term for an amab enby than trans woman MaitreyaVaruna (changing name to Immanuelle) please tag me (talk) 06:53, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is cited directly from the sources used, i think. Cactus Ronin (talk) 21:06, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The use of trans-eliminationist terminology matches the tone (and quality of the sources) of the article. 2600:1700:86AA:F010:4D82:2706:270B:1DDB (talk) 21:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 December 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The “trans”woman brain is NOT closer to “cis”gender women than “cis”gender men.

Evidence source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/ 184.97.75.129 (talk) 16:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 17:20, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Writing an encyclopedia article instead of a literature review

Just a friendly reminder that this article should be following the normal rule that we Cite sources, don't describe them. Factual information should be written as simple statements of fact, like "Taking hormones causes measurable changes to the brain", and not as "A 2011 review article by Prof. I.M. Portant in the Journal of Important Things found that taking hormones causes measurable changes to the brain". WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:31, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this article over-relies on primary sources; I have tagged many of the sources so that it will be easier to find the individual sources that should be reconsidered and (mostly) replaced. We sometimes see this happening when academics are contributing, because they're accustomed to the academic rule of priority (~always cite the oldest paper, because you want to give credit to the 'discoverer' instead of the ones who prove it correct [or wrong]). At the English Wikipedia, we are much more interested in making sure that the contents are up to date, so it's best to cite only sources published in the last five to ten years whenever that's feasible. For example, it should be possible to cite last section (about Blanchard's taxonomy) to a single university-level textbook or reference work that tells the whole story, instead of individual primary sources published during the last four decades. As a bonus, if you can cite the whole thing to a single good secondary source, then nobody will be able to whinge about editors cherry-picking sources to push the 'wrong' POV or editors engaging in original research by SYNTHing together sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. I have added several secondary sources under "some sources to use" (don't think they discuss Blanchards model tho) Zenomonoz (talk) 10:21, 5 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Brain sex" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Brain sex has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 8 § Brain sex until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 20:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

External factors?

The article Gender_dysphoria states: "The causes of gender incongruence are unknown, but a gender identity likely reflects genetic, biological, environmental, and cultural factors." Gender_identity goes over a number of "factors influencing formation," including social and environmental factors. One of the supplementary references at the top of this talk page, "Gender Identity Development: A Biopsychosocial Perspective," has a section on the social factors of gender-variant development. Yet this article is focused exclusively on biology and genetics and has nothing about social, cultural, or environmental factors. Clearly I'm not an expert; I had a general idea of the biological side of gender incongruence and was reading these articles to learn more about external factors, and I was surprised to find there was nothing about that here. 32.223.113.159 (talk) 22:01, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]