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Awards - Legends of Erotica

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Since editor Hullabaloo Wolfowitz seems to be unwilling to take it to the talk page as I repeatedly asked him to do when he claimed a referenced fact was spam and repeatedly removed it from the article, I will state my case: it's not spam. period. by no definition can it be considered spam. It's not an attempt to drive traffic to a commercial site. The awards ceremony does not get a lot of traffic or attention. However, the award and the ceremonies DO get attention and are referenced by the industry publications and associations, including AVN, amongst others. Porn and erotica are not well-respected in our society outside of the industry itself so I don't expect that non-salacious positive news gets much press outside of the industry itself. If you do a rather restrictive search for "Legends of Erotica" + "hall of fame" in google you get over 16,600 listings. If you search less restrictively, you get many more. If you search Google Scholar & Google Books you get references in both. He claimed that this award isn't listed on any other bio, but that is incorrect. He claims that it's an honorific that isn't supposed to be listed in this sort of awards, but that's not correct either - this isn't an honorific as defined by wikipedia. He claimed that it was non-notable, but with all the above, plus the fact that this award was under the purview of a well-respected industry historian, I do not consider that so; this award wasn't simply granted to attract popular and recent talent but was given to people previously active in the industry in order to recognize their extensive history and contribution to that industry. With all of that and the fact this was a referenced / cited fact, I will continue to revert any removal of this information until such a time a reasonable discussion takes place that can prove that all the above factual information is moot. Centerone (talk) 19:33, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Rubbish. Despite what you claim, these "awards" are not listed in any other bios here. The only relevant coverage in the single GScholar hit is a comment that the "award" is given out by/associated with "a local adult video store and nude dancer venue in Las Vegas". One of the two (quite trivial) GBooks hits classifies the "Eroticas" among awards that are really "inside jokes"; the other quotes the individual who hands out these "awards" as providing only one qualification for inclusion: "The performer has to have been in the business at least ten years". Like such useless tinfoil figurines as CAVR awards, "Spank Bank" awards, and similar tripe, these awards aren't notable (or even noteworthy). There's been consensus to remove such awards, both in porn-related articles and across entertainer biographies generally, and you provide no basis for making an exception to consensus practice here. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 20:45, 14 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"These "awards" are not listed in any other bios here. " This statement is just incorrect. You should really quit moving the goalposts. Your first argument was that they were spam, which you reiterated multiple times, without explanation. They're not. Yes, this award is listed in several other bios, it's not my fault you were unable to find it. It's also not a good argument, because if they're being removed because of this false claim it doesn't support the position. Before you ask, I'm not going to tell you which bios they are in because I don't want to support their removal. If you want to claim there has been consensus for something, then post the link to the discussion and policy. You just started saying it's an "honorific" however, that doesn't follow wikipedia's own definition of what honorifics are or the policy around such things. As far as complaining that the cited reference is just an album with a couple of sentences, and not a full-fledged article, the reference to the album is just to officially cite verifiable information from a reliable source regarding Carter's induction into the hall of fame. If you want to debate notability of LoE based on coverage and references, AVN has covered the Legends of Erotica Hall of Fame induction plenty of times, the 2014 year was the 20th annual ceremony. They had more detailed articles in 2013, and 2015 and a number of other years. I can't speak to why they didn't in 2014, but that doesn't make it any less notable. So, AVN which is the primary news source for the industry, has and does recognize LoE. As far as judgements about this Hall of Fame... do we make the same judgements about other hall of fame and walk of fames? We certainly cover a lot of walk of fames and hall of fames at wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Walks_of_fame https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_halls_and_walks_of_fame You could say the same thing about the Chinese Theatre handprints. How much business does that bring to the theatre? As far as the references in GScholar and GBooks... I don't know what you're talking about. Do you have access to the full references listed? In GScholar the TWO references are 1) to a 9 page article in a scholarly journal, and 2) a reference in a heavily referenced book. If You view on GBooks.. there are 108 references for "Legends of Erotica" or 83 if you search "Legends of Erotica" + "Hall of Fame" If you just view the available sections of the first few references you get rather in-depth and heavily cited and scholarly discussions that reference just how seriously Bill Margold thought about the awards such as "the function of porn prizes should be to honor genuine artistic achievement and historical performance in pornographic filmmaking". Furthermore, one learns that you are confusing some information when you reference in your above comment the "Eroticas" as "the Eroticas" were the the porn industry's first awards started in 1978, and yes, while they were started by William Margold amongst others, they are not the same as the Legends of Erotica Hall of Fame. I don't know where you got your "inside joke" reference, but when you read some of these references, you see an in-depth discussion about how AVN's awards are considered somewhat of an inside joke because they lack symbolic weight and basically only reward those films and productions which sell the best, so once again, you may be confusing criticism of different awards ceremonies. We certainly play plenty of attention and have large articles referencing the AVN awards, so why not these other awards? They're not just spam and they're not just given out without any thought. If anything, an in-depth look at these references seems to suggest that they're deserving of more attention, in as much as any industry awards and recognition are. Centerone (talk) 20:59, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reference for well-known fact of Carter being Jewish

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Amongst many others, it is well known Carter Stevens is Jewish. Here's but one reference from a selection of many. Perhaps someone can add an appropriate line to the article. (I don't have time at the moment.) https://books.google.com/books?id=xecTAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT81&lpg=PT81&dq=carter+stevens+jewish&source=bl&ots=jb8ThdRqH0&sig=ACfU3U0FwcqCoXcrP6ruDchh3rXpx4cA-w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiex5iN_LbhAhVhh-AKHaK4CqQQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=carter%20stevens%20jewish&f=false Centerone (talk) 17:35, 4 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The book is not reliable. All information in WP:BLP articles must be reliable, and sourced. Please don't enter information into biographies if you "don't have time" to reliably source it. Jayjg (talk) 18:17, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have time to edit and add what is and has been a well-known fact for ages, this is just ONE reference, there are tons of others. Scuuuuuse me for having a life. This is NOT debatable: Carter is Jewish. This is not controversial. Centerone (talk) 20:19, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here's another reference. http://www.cinefear.com/carterstevens.html Centerone (talk) 21:10, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Do you consider www.cinefear.com to be a reliable source for the purposes of biographies of living people? It appears to be the personal website of Keith J. Crocker. Jayjg (talk) 21:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I certainly believe it appears to be a reliable source. Niche and subculture communities are small, and good records of the communities, if they exist at all, are usually to be found within publications by people dedicated to and involved in those genres. On this website I see: a business (in business since 1990) distributing, producing, and creating exploitation and underground films, and a publication dedicated to those genres (first published in 1987). I see transcribed journalistic interviews with people of interest to those in those fields. Carter himself in the interview says he's Jewish. If Carter himself saying something in an interview with a journalist cannot be trusted, what can? If such statements exist in many places, it's probably in publications like long-gone ephemeral publications like Al Goldstein's SCREW, if they exist at all - porn dinosaurs are not frequently interviewed in mainstream publications, and when they are, it's not usually about their religious and familial history. Centerone (talk) 19:54, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Have you reviewed WP:SPS? It's pretty clear this website is self-published. Jayjg (talk) 20:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Carter's own bio says he's Jewish. This is simply a fact, not contentious, not up for debate, not controversial. http://www.smnews.com/scrapbk/autobio1.htm Centerone (talk) 19:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good thing we're not debating then. How do you know this is Carter's actual/true bio? Has this been published on any reliable source? 20:11, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
You're... kidding, right? How do I know this is his actual / true bio? It's on S&M News. http://www.smnews.com/ Which, if you have read the article, you would know is Carter's own site. Centerone (talk) 21:12, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That seems like a reasonable source to use then. Please ensure that you include it as a properly formatted citation; see Wikipedia:Bare URLs for more information. Jayjg (talk) 16:21, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Death reference.

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Carter's son, Braden, posted on Carter's facebook page about his father passing: "My name is Braden Frost, Malcolm Worob (AKA) Carter Stevens is my father. He callapsed today and was prenounced at 2:15 at St lukes Hospital in PA. I am not sure of the cause yet. I dont know how yet but will get a go fund me page for expences. (PERSONAL INFORMATION REDACTED) He loved what he did and is a ICON in the aduilt film industry."Centerone (talk) 03:47, 3 January 2021 (UTC) (forgot to sign this before)[reply]

Here are some additional references from a reliable source: https://avn.com/business/articles/video/golden-age-director-carter-stevens-dies-894464.html https://avn.com/business/articles/video/golden-age-adult-filmmaker-carter-stevens-has-passed-894488.html Centerone (talk) 03:47, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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