Talk:Carloman II

France Mid‑importance

	France portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Politics and Government / Royalty and Nobility

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Low-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Royalty and Nobility.

Middle Ages Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Move?

Is there any reason not to move this page to Carloman II? Who's the other Carloman II that necessitates a dab, esp. one as awkward as this? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 06:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Consistency with the other 'French' kings. Also, Carloman I, King of the Franks is sometimes called Carloman II (when Carloman brother of Pippin the Short is called Carloman I), and the possibly ordinal nature of Carloman of Bavaria is, thanks to the inconsistent manner in which the Carolingians are enumerated, dubious. Michael Sanders 13:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can you cite a source for that enumeration of Carlomans mayor and king? Carloman of Bavaria does not count. Srnec (talk) 17:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pierre Riche, The Carolingians: "Carloman I, son of Charles Martel", "Carloman II, son of Pepin the Short." The other Carlomans he gives are just "Carloman of Bavaria, son of Louis the German", "Carloman, son of Charles the Bald" and "Carloman, son of Louis the Stammerer". Cambridge Medieval History, however, talks of "Carloman I" (referring to the brother of Charlemagne) and "Carloman II" (referring to this person). Michael Sanders 18:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Such numbers are not the common thing, as the Hammer's son Carloman was mayor while his nephew, Charlemagne's brother Carloman was King, the first of that name. If anyone is Carloman I it is Charlemagne's brother. Hence, such a number is possibly, though not actually needed. Str1977 ^(talk) 19:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree in general, though Sanders has provided a source for two diff. enumerations. There is no doubt, however, that they are arbitrary. We could move this to "Carloman II of West Francia" if there is an issue with using "France". I wouldn't object. As to "Carloman I": I agree with Str and the Cambridge, but I have placed a dab hatnote atop Carloman I directing readers to his uncle. I have placed a similar note here in case Carloman I is what's meant. That done, I think the situation is as good as it'll get unless somebody wants to remove "France" here or go back to the "son of" forms we originally had for the first two Carlomans. Srnec (talk) 22:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]