Talk:Kapitan Arab

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Requested move 9 January 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 04:38, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Captain of the Arabs → Kapitan Arab – It's a Malay language title, not an English title. The Malay form is more commonly used in academic and other written sources in English Conformity with comparable titles: Kapitan Cina and Kapitan Keling. 180.252.44.222 (talk) 08:15, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Kapten Arab seems to be more common than Kapitan Arab, and Kapitein der Arabieren even more common than either. --HyperGaruda (talk) 10:16, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment (2): It's not a Malay title. The original title was introduced by Dutch in Indonesia as Kapitein der Arabieren. Kapten Arab (Indonesian) or Kapitan Arab (Malay) is just direct translation of it, the same as the english Captain of the Arabs. Buhadram (talk)--Buhadram (talk) 02:08, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment (3): Hi both. I've got an account now. Here are my arguments:

1. The Dutch authorities used both Dutch and Malay in the colonial bureaucracy of Indonesia. So, when the Dutch introduced the title "Kapitein der Arabieren", there would have been an official Malay translation for government use. So, in a sense, it is a Malay language title. The colonial Malay version, I suspect, was "Kapitan Arab" rather than "Kapten Arab": see, for example, i). De Indische gids, Volume 25, Part 2 (1903): p.1380; and ii). Terrain Study, Issue 45, published by the Allied Forces in the South West Pacific after WW II to describe the political administration of colonial Indonesia.

2. "Kapitan" and "Kapten" are both used in both contemporary Bahasa Indonesia and Bahasa Malaysia. "Kapitan" is the older spelling, and is used to refer to historic figures, such as Kapitan Jonker and Kapitan Pattimura (to my knowledge, never Kapten Jonker and Kapten Pattimura), and to historic government positions, such as Kapitan Cina. To use "Kapten Arab" instead of "Kapitan Arab" would be historically anachronistic, and does not reflect contemporary practice in relation to historic government positions and figures.

3. Retitling this article "Kapitan Arab" is in line with comparable articles on Wikipedia: Kapitan Cina and Kapitan Keling. Uniformity and common standards are important for encyclopaedia articles.

4. As far as I know, a "Captain of the Arabs" was never appointed in British colonial territories. So, "Captain of the Arabs" might never even have existed as an English language title. If "Kapitan Cina" and "Kapitan Keling" are referred to in English in their original Malay, I see no reason why "Kapitan Arab" should be translated literally into English. Note that even during the colonial era, both "Kapitan Cina" and "Kapitan Keling" were very rarely, if ever, translated literally into English as "Captain of the Chinese" and "Captain of the Indians".

5. I realise that in the Dutch East Indies, all these titles were always translated into Dutch as Kapitein der Arabieren, Chinezen, Papangers and others. But (going back to point no 1 above) Malay was as extensively used in the Dutch colonial administration. And in Malay, all these titles are almost uniformly rendered in colonial Indonesia as "Kapitan", not "Kapten".

So, I think "Captain of the Arabs" should be changed to "Kapitan Arab" to reflect the official Malay version of the title during the Dutch colonial era, and to maintain uniformity and common standards with other related articles (i.e., Kapitan Cina and Kapitan Keling). Furthermore, I think that "Captain of the Arabs" was never an official English language title in British-held territories. Finally, when speaking in a historic context in English, Bahasa Malaysia and Bahasa Indonesia (both in colonial and contemporary use) the title "Kapitan" is almost always left unchanged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yumao* (talk • contribs) 05:56, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support for WP:CONSISTENCY with Kapitan Cina and Kapitan Keling, but with no prejudice against Kapitein der Arabieren if it really can be shown to be the WP:COMMONNAME. This topic has no connection to the English language; the fact that it can be translated doesn't mean we should translate it. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼ 03:23, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wassalam! Support for consistency with Kapitan Cina and Kapitan Keling as well. I should add that this title probably only existed in the Dutch East Indies, so Kapitein der Arabieren would have been acceptable but for the sake of consistency already noted earlier Abdoelalkadri (talk) 00:36, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
* OK, I am neutral on either one (Buhadram (talk) 00:44, 17 January 2017 (UTC))[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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