Talk:Butterfly knife/Archive 1

Archive 1

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 March 2019 and 10 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): SamLayton's.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:25, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Unclear language

In the intro paragraph, here's some word salad: "where it is traditionally the parson who do is in the first time was (Omar Mohamed Khalil Mohamed Hassan Khalil)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:1000:2100:C4E:8532:87B7:E898 (talk) 17:29, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Changed Butterfly Knife article to Disambiguation Page

The Buttefly Knife page is now a disambiguation page between Balisong and Butterfly Sword. This should settle things. -Object404 (talk) 12:25, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Suggested name change to Balisong

Come on, guys. Butterfly knife? That's like going to "Katana" and changing the page name to "Samurai Sword". The proper name for the knife is Balisong. I propose changing the name. Iamthawalrus9 — Preceding undated comment added 07:57, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

• I agree. We should change it.

"2602:306:3113:8320:DCD8:C91D:85CC:451 (talk)Fantaza2602:306:3113:8320:DCD8:C91D:85CC:451 (talk)"

Moved back to Balisong (knife)

Two reasons:

1. The user who moved the article to butterfly knife is a suspected sock puppet, and as such, his/her credibility is in question.
2. Before an article can be moved in WP, a request must be made, and the decision whether to do so or not depends upon consensus.

-- Kguirnela 02:41, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Reverted name back to Balisong after edit by said user. The term butterfly knife is also used by practitioners of Hung Gar and Wing Chun for the Chinese Butterfly Sword, and some Chinese practitioners take offense at the usage of the term for balisongs as a hijacking of the name. -Object404 (talk) 23:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Someone reverted the article to Butterfly Knife again, which is not the official name for the weapon in formal martial arts circles. It is the "pop culture" name. I am going to return it to Balisong, and turn the Butterfly Knife into a disambiguation page between the Chinese Butterfly Sword and the Filipino folding knife. -Object404 (talk) 12:06, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Rename article to Balisong

Two thoughts: One, the article should be renamed to Balisong, as "butterfly knife" also refers to a sword used in Hung Gar (IIRC), which should have its own article. Also, I'm altering the line about Kali, because the balisong is generally not a prominent weapon in the art. --Lazyhound 14:32, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Isn't the Hung Gar weapon called Butterfly sword

http://www.wle.com/product4561.html http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-69l.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.107.0.81 (talk) 01:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

--131.207.161.152 07:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• Please do not move the main article to "Butterfly Knife" knife again as it is the informal term. Balisong is the proper term for the particular knife discussed in this article. It is the name used by manufacturers, collectors, practitioners and members of the martial arts world. The Chinese Hung Gar Butterfly Sword is also well known as the Butterfly knife because of its shorter length compared to more traditional swords and Butterfly Knife causes a lot of confusion. -Object404 (talk) 23:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Etymology

Bali - in Tagalog does mean "Broken". But it can also mean "to fold" or "to bend". Maoster (talk) 14:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Fold in Tagalog is tiklop -Object404 (talk) 07:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Non encyclopedic term

The page contain improper term. "Crap" is not considered as proper term. Please correct.

Dejingoisation

Well, first of all I separated Canada from the US states and made UK being higher as it is culturally, historically, linguistically and alphabetically(mind only the latter :p). So it would be really nice if someone elaborated the Canadian laws... --Turkmenbashy 23:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Butterfly knives have been illegal in Britain since the blanket " Offensive weapons act" of 1988, which came into force in 1989. I have altered the reference to the UK law to refelct this. Whereas in the UK it IS legal to own a (for example) Bowie knife in your own home it is NOT legal to possess a Butterfly knife. 21:27, 19 October 2006 (Dangerdave 21:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)) Signed Dangerdave

This is incorrect. This is a misunderstanding of the (fairly complex) laws surroundng offensive weapons.

It is not illegal merely to possess a butterfly knife... possession of any type of knife is not an offense per se; such stringent restrictions are reserved for firearms, explosives (and, I imagine, chemical and nuclear weapons).

The referred-to law makes it an an offence to manufacture, sell, hire, offer for sale or hire, expose or possess for the purpose of sale or hire, lend or give away a butterfly knife (under §141, Criminal Justice Act 1988). It also makes it an offence (under §50(2) or (3) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979) to import such a knife. It is not an offence merely to possess such a knife, and it is not explicitly an offence to buy or borrow one (although that might be regarded as incitement to commit an offence of sale or hire).

Carrying a butterfly knife in public probably is an offence under most circumstances (either under §139, Criminal Justice Act 1988 or §1, Prevention of Crime Act 1953). TomH 01:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction

There are three points, one after the other, in the introductory section that all relate to when the knife was invented, and they all contradict each other. The problem is that none of them lists any sources, so who knows which one is right (possibly none of them).GBMorris 12:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The first idea cites a book and that is a valid source. The other two ideas are nothing more than rumors or widely held misconceptions.

In the third idea, the fact that American servicemen returning from the Philippines, after WWII, popularized the balisong in the U.S. is true; but that doesn't lend any credence to an idea that it was invented around 1900. Nothing in the article supports invention around 1900 . There is no basis in the article or the cited eskrima article to support the second "idea" either.

All we can document about the origin of the Balisong knife is that (1) someone published a drawing of a balisong knife in France around 1710, and (2) many American servicemen returned to the U.S. from the Philippines with Balisong knives after WWII. From (2) we can make a logical deduction that (3) the knife was widely available in the Philippines sometime before American servicemen arrived in there during WWII. Anything else, unless documented, is speculation and does not belong in an encyclopaedic article. Sam 17:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

A few points I'd like to make:

• I don't think it's a problem that there's a contradiction; the article just lists the possible origins and clearly states that "The history of the butterfly knife is uncertain, though three main ideas persist". We don't know the actual origin, so why not list the current theories?
• I definately agree that we need citations.
• Just because there's a drawing in a French book doesn't mean that it couldn't have been independently invented, or copied, in the Philippines in the 1900s.
• There are a few Philippine references to balisongs (eg here and here).
• If there is a choice between obviously speculative information and no (or less) information, i'd chose the former. It's not like it's speculation clothed as fact.

--User24 16:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Balisong (butterfly) knives are NOT illegal in Nevada. It is most certainly not a felony to carry one. Reference: Nevada Revised Statutes (2005) NRS 202.350 In fact, you can even apply for a permit to carry switchblades in Nevada.

Where did this erroneous "fact" come from?

Taoshaman

I was going to start a new section addressing this, but it's already here it seems. I was always told the butterfly knife was a French invention, yet had heard it was heavily embraced by Phillipino culture. Not a big step there, France, Spain, Phillipines. Perfect, logical sense. However, we have no references for that. Given the facts we do have however, I am first going to redirect Balisong to butterfly knife, as the English nomenclature isn't only the most predominant usage, but probably more apt (unless we call it whatever it translates to in French); secondly I will ammend the article accordingly to address the fact it's a french invention.

There are many 'references' cited which are just some random dudes websites that say along the lines of "X culture used Y tool in the neolithic timez d00dz." and nothing more. Quite dissapointing. Whilst I'm sure it's trendier to pretend this form of switchblade has some esoteric martial arts root in some exotic asian culture, unfortunately, from all the hard evidence presented it's a Frenchy thing. :P 211.30.75.123 03:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It was my understanding when I was younger (nothing to cite on this, but might be worth further digging for those with the resources) at there was a knife company in the Phllipines that was called Balisong and they used the butterfly as an emblem that they impressed on their knives - this being at least part of the reason that the Balisong knife also became known as the butterfly knife. Back in the 1980's I saw several very finely crafted balisong knives with the butterfly imprint. As I recall, it appeared on a portion of the blade haft that was visible when the knife was closed. 128.172.48.37 (talk) 06:47, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

re: French invention

Saying that the Balisong is a purely French invention given the fact of the existence of the Pied-Du-Roy, the sketch in "Le Perret", and the patent for the Balisong design is not conclusive either. It only supports that the concept of the Balisong has already spread Europe during the 1700s, but does not support evidence about its origins. Also, patent alone is not conclusive of a certain invention's origin - it may be a stolen idea for all we know.

Saying that the knife might have spread in Europe during the 1565-1815 Manila Galleon Trade (which predate the French origin), is plausible (the Philippines was discovered in 1521), but is also inconclusive.

Again we don't have any evidence about the knife's origin. What we do know is that the mass produced butterfly knife we know now came from the Batangas knife, that's why its being called the Balisong.

And please don't redirect this page to "butterfly knife" even though you claim its the predominant term. Knife enthusiasts acknowledge the term Balisong. Its like redirecting Katana to Samurai Sword.

The French didn't have a name for their invention when they invented it (if the French indeed invented the design), and they never mass produced it. Let's stick to Balisong.

This article should present all of the possible theories of the Balisong's origin. The statement of 211.30.75.123, claiming that it was embraced by the Filipino culture is dismissive and false.

--User:Qvenx10:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Vente nuebe?

The section about traditional balisong says a common slang term for the knife is "vente nueve" (29), for the "standard 29 inch" balisong size.

Isn't that a mistake for 29 centimetes? A balisong is a pocket knife made to be easily manipulated with one hand... even counting that half of the size is in the handle, 29 centimeters (nearly a foot) still is quite a handful... 29 inches (nearly 2 feet and a half) would be a nice size for a gladius style short sword, or a fair hunting knife... it would never go into a pocket. --Svartalf 19:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

re: Vente nuebe?

It is not a slang term. It is true that Balisongs have sizes and the standard size being the "bente nuebe". Yes it has a 6 inch blade and almost a foot including the handle - I should know this because I own five "bente nuebes" in my collection and all of them are Batangas originals. It is not a handful trust me, it can be opened as swiftly as any smaller sized balisongs.

However, I'm quite skeptical as to the size of the bente nuebe being referenced to 29 centimeters. Balisong sizes are tagged according to what they call "pati" - a size reference made by the knife makers in Batangas. The standard sizes are pati "bente nuebe" or 29 (6 inch blade), pati "dose" or 12 (4 inch blade), pati "dies" or 10 (3 inch blade). If you'll measure the whole size of the bente nuebe, its falls short by half a centimeter or more. Just as the pati "dose" is not 12cm, but it is almost 8 inches when opened.

The 29 inch Balisong the article is referring must be the novelty item giant Balisong. It is also being produced here and its almost a foot in size when folded. I must point out that the giant balisong is not outlawed here in the Philippines, and you can buy them in any souvenir shop. I just recently bought my second giant balisong.

--Qvenx 21:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Added the commonly told story about the man who fought off 29 attackers as the origin of the name Veinte y Nueve. -Object404 (talk) 23:19, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Benchmade Prices

I think someone should recheck that data there under the picture in the References section claiming those knives in the picture to be worth between 500-1200, I have seen some of those knives sell for around 200 dollars and they weren't on sale. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.127.14.9 (talk) 19:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC) diff

I agree that the prices listed in that caption were questionable. Besides, without a source, I believe pricing info would be original research. Anyway, I don't feel like the prices really add to the description of the knives in the picture, so I removed the sentence. Jodamn (talk) 01:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of the prices from the caption. However, I think that 71.127.14.9 has confused the current Benchmade line (MSRP around $200) with their Pacific Cutlery predecessors. One can distinguish them by whether the pivot pins are visible and the distance between the last hole and the end of the handle – compare with the labeled photo in the Parts section. The balisongs in the photo appear to be collectible Pacific Cutlery (manufactured in the 1980s) and in good condition. Flatscan (talk) 03:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

1st Person?

Gemini created huge excitement and huge interest. Gemini also became a rallying-point for the entire community. The whole community (at the time maybe twenty-five or thirty-people, rallied around Gemini and that created a synergy. That caused the rest of the knife community to take notice of balisongs and our subcommunity.

Needs more POV, perhaps.--124.170.251.170 04:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

about nomination of 2 diferent kinds of balisongs

I didn't see a clear definition about the 2 kinds of balisongs. I'm sorry if I didn't pay attention to it but there are 2 kinds of balisongs. The Batanga Knife - The handle of the knife that has the latch is fixed to the part of the knife that cuts (the edge) The Manila Knife - The handle of the knife that has the latch is fixed to the part of the knife that doesn't cut (the back of the edge)

That may be of some interest for it changes the way a person may flip the knife without having himself cut by the blade.

200.144.31.37 (talk) 22:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

There is a brief mention of latch position in Balisong (knife)#Parts. Flatscan (talk) 04:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The Outsiders

I watched The Outsiders (film), paying close attention to whether balisongs were featured prominently. Two-Bit (Estevez) carries a balisong, but it appears only twice (after the drive-in movie and in the hospital with Dallas) and without particular emphasis. As the mention of The Outsiders has been sitting with a {{fact}} tag, I have removed it. It can be restored if a reliable source is found. Flatscan (talk) 01:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Good call. I've never seen the movie, but I remember when it came out, my little sister saw me twirling a bali and asked me if it was the same knife as in the movie. I don't remember any outcry over balis from this movie, either.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 02:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Legality by State

The link that is supposed to provide information on Balisong legality by state, actually links to switchblade legality by state. My state law (Tennessee) considers Balisongs and switchblades to be two different knives. Here, switchblades are illegal, but Basilongs are not. This may cause confusion for some people who live in states who view Basilongs and switchblades to be different, while the Wikipedia legality article views them as the same. (74.177.37.2 (talk) 05:41, 28 July 2008 (UTC))

Default melee weapon in Far Cry?

In video game Far Cry, the default melee weapon is a butterfly knife.

I don't remember this at all. There is no default melee weapon in Far Cry. In both Far Cry and its sequel, the only melee weapon available is a folding machete. Maybe this is a brief oversight? Could somebody back this up with some source(s)? Thanks. 76.190.152.7 (talk) 00:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

76.190.152.7, your memory is correct - upon checking, there is no default weapon in Far Cry (or any butterfly knife at all). I've removed that text from the article. Jodamn (talk) 01:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Offensive Weapons Act 1988

There doesn't appear to be an Offensive Weapons Act 1988. This Google search for "Offensive Weapons Act 1988" suggests that it may be a misnomer for some other Act of Parliament or statutory order. -- The Anome (talk) 18:28, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Looks like it should be the Criminal Justice Act 1988, as amended by the Offensive Weapons Act 1996 according to this:[1],--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 18:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I was going to say "Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988", but I think you're right that the CJA 1988 provisions have now been superseded. IANAL, though. I'll see if I can get expert eyes on this. -- The Anome (talk) 19:19, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Image of folded knife?

There are numerous pictures in this article, but as far as I can tell, every single one shows the knife with the blade unfolded. I think a photo or drawing showing a single Balisong in both closed and open positions would be a useful illustration of how the knife folds, which was a little unclear to me just from the text. However, I do not myself possess such an image. Augurar (talk) 05:04, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Move? 2011

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:21, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

---

Balisong (knife) → Butterfly knife – 01:57, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

With regards to Kguirnela's 2007 statements above, in the section Moved back to Balisong (knife), on the basis of "2. Before an article can be moved in WP, a request must be made, and the decision whether to do so or not depends upon consensus"; that is, in fact, incorrect.  WP:Request move states:

Any autoconfirmed users can use the [move] tab located at the top of each page to perform simple moves …
In some situations the appropriateness of a move may be under dispute, and discussion is necessary in order to reach a consensus.  There is no obligation to list such move requests [ at WP:Request Move ]; this page may be seen as a place to advertise move debates that would benefit from wider community input, or for users to request assistance from administrators in moving pages.
Discussions about retitling of an article (page move) can always be carried out at the article's talk page without adding an entry here. …
If you have no reason to expect a dispute concerning a move, be bold and move the page. …

If anything, given that there was a dispute, he should likely have sought consensus to move it back.  And with regards to his first point that the user that made the prior move "…to butterfly knife is a suspected sock puppet…", I'm not sure an unsubstantiated accusation like that is any more relevant than a sideways reference that the desire to name the article balisong appears to be based on some wiki promotion of Filipino national identity.
Regardless, since there is obviously some contention on the issue, with multiple previous moves, perhaps some consensus can be reached here through discussion.
WP:Naming Conventions establishes 5 general points for directing article titles towards consensus:
1.  Recognizability: As a North American, I can honestly say that I've never heard the term balisong in reference to a butterfly knife (other than in this Wikipedia article).  Every film, book, television show, and media report here refers to it as a butterfly knife.  Pending confirmation from someone in the region(s), I assume that the same goes for the U.K., Australia, et al.  This is the English Wikipedia and should reflect the standard naming used by the majority of English speaking countries (US, UK, and the former Commonwealth); notwithstanding the Philippines' embracing of English.
2.  Naturalness: "Such titles usually convey what the subject is actually called in English."  A quick web search returned (at the moment of posting) hit counts of:

Search Engine	Balisong	Butterfly	Ratio
Google   +xxxx +(knife OR switchblade OR blade)	875,000	21,000,000	24:1
Google   "xxxx knife" OR "xxxx knives"	184,000	1,210,000	6½:1
Google Books   +xxxx +(knife OR switchblade OR blade)	2,680	1,470,000	548:1
Google Books   "xxxx knife" OR "xxxx knives"	310	3,990	13:1
Blekko    +xxxx +(knife OR switchblade OR blade)	0 + 4K	4 + 140K	35:1
Blekko    "xxxx knife" OR "xxxx knives"	0 + 90	10 + 6K	66:1

Third-party sources therefore would appear to indicate that Butterfly Knife is more than 10 times more standard.

3.  Precision: The article is, in fact, about all types of butterfly knives, Balisongs, American butterfly knives, although it surprising doesn't currently include any reference to the French version, yet I see Talk page reference above to a drawing in a French book and some mention afterwards of the 1700s; I would expect that to be included in this article (if any RS can be referenced) as just a little more topically, encyclopedic information (a balance of all POVs in order to present an NPOV).
If there were separate articles on butterfly and balisong knives then the current name would be appropriate for one of those two articles; but if two articles did exist, one would expect they'd immediately be subjected to a proposal to merge on the basis that they were the same topic and that each should be a section in a generally named article; and that general name is butterfly knife.
4.  Conciseness: Not particulary relevant in this instance since both are reasonably concise; although arguably balisong (knife) is only concise in the case of an article about only balisong knives; whereas butterfly knife would appear to be concise with regard to the overall class of knives of which the balisong might be said to be a sub-set.
5.  Consistency: Neither title would appear to be particularly consistent or inconsistent with others save to fall back to the policy of Use English which there seems to be no reason here to switch to go with the name of a district in the Philippines where the weapon is known to be common.
I note that, during earlier discussions, a short-term editor, who made no contributions other than postings on this talk page, pointed out that "Knife enthusiasts acknowledge the term Balisong" as justification for the previous move by the short-term, 21 edit count, 2005 editor User:Lazyhound calling them balisong rather than butterfly knives.  First of all the claim is unreferenced; but more relevant, this is precisely the point of the naming policies, if there is a less common name, generally used by those with a specialized interest, or by members of a small group of enthusiasts, it can be clearly highlighted in the Lead and throughout the article; but the main title should reflect the naturalist, more recognizable name, which clearly seems to be Butterfly knife.
Is it more appropriate to be Butterfly knife or Butterfly (knife)?  I'd suggest the former (unparenthesised version) as I don't believe anyone ever refers to it simply as a "butterfly" except perhaps in the middle of a long list of knives; but realistically, I believe it's always referred to with the two word name of Butterfly knife. — Who R you? Talk 03:33, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support per WP:Commonname. The common name of the subject is butterfly knife. Flamarande (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Animation of knife being opened and closed

I've had to cut File:Opening and closing a Balisong aka Butterfly Knife.gif a couple of times now. It may or may not be a useful image (it's perhaps a little showy), but WP:IUP/ANIM clearly says that "Inline animations should be used sparingly; a static image with a link to the animation is preferred unless the animation has a very small file size." - this animation is 1.5Mb, which is too large to be used here. --McGeddon (talk) 19:04, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Given the unique nature of the knife, I think an animation is called for. Could we add it back, perhaps as a link like you stated? Thanks -DJLO (talk) 00:24, 16 June 2016 (UTC)