Talk:Brodir and Ospak of Man

Brodir and Ospak of Man has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
March 11, 2009	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on March 17, 2009.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Brodir and Ospak of Man were two 11th-century Danish brothers who fought on opposite sides at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014?

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Danish?

Whether Brodir was "danish" is a question unanswered, most reliable sources tell no more of him than that he came from Isle of Man.Finnrind 19:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:13, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

houseofnames

I don't think the houseofnames website counts as a reliable source. Maybe something better can be found?--Celtus (talk) 07:51, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There doesn't seem to be anything better on the internet, but a published book on genealogy will likely have something better. I'll have to look into this. --Grimhelm (talk) 14:55, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good article that could be better

Kudos to Grimhelm for improving this article a lot! Since I'm not that familiar with preferred formatting of articles at en:wikipedia (and not that steady in the English language), I'll add some points here instead of editing the article.

It seems strange that this is a joint article of the two brothers, even if Njals saga makes a big deal out of the "good and bad brother"-plot, but most sources (as far as I know) refer to Brodir without mentioning Ospak.
The first line of the article is rather "messy" (for lack of a better word) when it lists several (but not all) the variant spellings of their names with references. Any medieval name is bound to be spelled in different forms in various sources.
The article depends rather heavily on Njals saga, and does not refer to the various entries in the annals (which probably are the most "historical" sources available). See AU 1014: "Brotor qui occidit Brian, .i. toisech na loingsi Lochlannaighi" , CS 1014 (1012) "Bruadar chief of the Danes, and it was he killed Brian", AFM 1013 (1014) "Brodar, chief of the Danes of Denmark, who was the person that slew Brian", AClon 1007 "on the other side Brwader Earle of the Island of the Orcades called together and assembled all the Danes of Denmark out of all parts and kingdoms that owed them any service to that place as Generall and captain of the Danes, where there was a bloody battle between them fought at Clontarffe aforesaid. Brwader himself with his thousand men in shirtes of maile were slaine,...", ALC 1014 "There arrived there also Brodar, i.e. the Jarl of Caer-Eabhrog, with very great hosts"
Note that Brodir is called "Lord of the Danes" (which should probalby point to Danes (Germanic tribe), certainly not to modern day Denmark) by some sources, "Lord of the fleet of Lochlainn" by AU&ALC and "earl of Orkney" by AClon. According to Clare Downham "Brut y Tywysogyon and Brenhinedd y Saesson state that Sigtryggr hired Brodir and his followers to fight for him". (Viking Kings of Britain and Ireland, 197-8).

Just some thoughts, hope it's of help if anyone wants to improve the article further. Finn Rindahl (talk) 18:58, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. I've changed the "Danish" link to Danes (Germanic tribe) - which is the easiest one to do.

I also agree with the "messiness" of the first line, but as it is referenced, I decided to leave it as it was. I do agree with your comment about spelling changing over time.Pyrotec (talk) 19:12, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both for the comments (and thank you Pyrotec for such a speedy review). This is the first biographical article in which I listed out the name variants with references for each, but the reason for this is that as I was working on the article, I noticed that even all the modern sources gave different names. Because this is an encyclopedia, I felt that it would be best to list the variants with reference notes to make it clear to the interested reader as to which sources used which. Moving this list down from the lede does tidy things up.

When I had written the article, ironically the main source I felt I had neglected was the propagandist Cogadh Gaedhil re Gallaibh. Of course, I had missed the accounts (and further name variants) from the annals, so thank you for pointing those out.

Lastly, my decision to give the pair a joint article was actually in part because Ospak is neglected from sources other than Njáls saga. Because the narrative ties them so closely together, it made more sense to have them both together rather than giving Ospak a separate article.

Thanks again. These considerations will certainly make the article better in the future. --Grimhelm (talk) 23:29, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Name

I see that "Bróðir and Óspak of Man" is the name constantly used in the article, but the page isn't titled that way, so a move might be in order. Any thoughts? —Admiral Norton ^(talk) 11:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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How did he die?

My research, and the article about Brian Boru indicate that was killed by Brian's men after Brian's death. Why is that not mentioned in the article about Brodir?

  The more common theory is that Brian was killed by the fleeing Viking mercenary Brodir Haywood, John (27 September 2016). Northmen: The Viking Saga, AD 793-1241. p. 158.  while praying in his tent at Clontarf.<ref name=":3">Grant, R. G.; Doughty, Robert (2011). 1001 Battles That Changed the Course of World History. Random House. p. 128. ISBN 978-0-7893-2233-3.

   Brodir was later captured and brutally executed by Ulf the Quarrelsome, an ally and possibly a relative of Brian who was fiercely loyal to him. Brodir's stomach was slashed open with a sword, and he was made to walk around a tree resulting in his insides being spun round the tree. Njal's Saga AND Haywood, John (27 September 2016). Northmen: The Viking Saga, AD 793-1241. p. 158.

Peter K Burian (talk) 14:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]